Assisted Suicide the Question ?

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Teddyboy » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:12 pm

"And he was from Tyneside."

North Shields, in fact. Where good old Stan Laurel spent some of his formative years.



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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by timetraveller » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:14 pm

May I offer my sympathies, WI on your sad loss . I hope and trust that your loving memories of your father will make your grief more bearable.

As for the thorny subject of Euthanasia or of 'Assisted Suicide', the problem is that neither the humanitarian nor any religious or moral considerations are the most problematic concern. I am sure that most people with any iota of compassion would recognise that releasing another person from the prolonged suffering of a terminal illness is an act of mercy rather than murder. And for those who's religious convictions would prohibit any form of suicide or 'mercy killing' there would be no compulsion to participate!

The obstacle, obviously, is that if Euthanasia were legalised in Britain, how would the 'system' be effectively 'policed'? Without really rigid safeguards in place, especially concerning the issue of consent, it would be wide open to abuse. God forbid that a situation should arise whereby the more unscrupulous amongst us could effectively arrange to have the lives of our elderly, sick, disabled and dependant relatives terminated on the pretext of 'mercy killing', when really they have just become too burdensome!

And how is consent to be reliably determined in cases whereby very sick or disabled individuals are unable to communicate verbally or in writing? It's a very difficult issue all round I think, and although I would personally like to see Euthanasia legalised in Britain with, and only with, strong controls, I can see that there would be major issues associated with this, not least in terms of resources.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by FABlux » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:21 pm

We too are very sorry for your loss Winged Isis.

On AS we have both always said that is what Dignitas is for & I hope we will be able to use it should (or when) the need arises. We have discussed it with the family & they know how we feel. They are probably secretly relieved that they won't have to try to cope with us if we become incapable of caring for ourselves.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Who2 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:23 am

Dignitas ? an industrial estate in Switzerland, I'll have a chat with you at the film night as i can undercut dignitas..:cool:
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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Dusak » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:21 am

Nine years ago my mother who had suffered many hart attacks over a period of three months ended up in a special hart ward, full of people just waiting to breath their last. It was very depressing going to see her and every time I did go over three days, one, then two, then another drew their last breath. For me, getting ready to say good by to a truly wonderful mother was difficult. But it was made easier for me when the Doctor asked me if I would like my mother to go peacefully. I said yes, she was given an injection and died ten minuets later. I held her hand as she passed and she squeezed it with what strength she had left. I like to think that she was thanking me.

Then, after that began a three year full care job looking after my father at home. Life had to go on hold, all savings had to be used to supplement what the Government gave. No time to our selves, no brake in the tiring and exhausting job of full time car. His time came and he passed. What my father suffered from was incurable, drugs kept him in a zombie state both in body and mind. This was no life for him, he hardly existed. During this time, my cat, Foss, developed a problem with her kidneys. The vet stated it would be better for her to be put down, (never did like this term) which we did. I firmly believe to this day that my father, who I admired very much, should have been given the same choice.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Hafiz » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:55 pm

For timetraveller - I agree about the practical problems but the Swiss and Dutch have been operating their 'systems' for almost 10 years with few reported problems except (I think) some press on the illegal disposal of bodies in a Swiss lake!

A more difficult issue is where sick people feel that they are a burden on relatives and friends and make a decision based on their 'guilty' feeling that they are ruining the lives of others. How you 'police' such cases I don't know. In Egypt the family are expected to look after sick and dying family so this problem probably doesn't arise - whereas it does in the West.

However, this is a long way from the first post on the film.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Who2 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:05 pm

quote: However, this is a long way from the first post on the film.

Not really, it was the recent report from the high court that reminded me of the film and my ongoing idea for a tranquil oasis graveyard over behind medinet habu toward the monastery.
Mind you if you haven't seen the film, it's one of my 'desert island dvds, and you should, before it's too late....:cool:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/
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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:33 pm

Hafiz wrote:A more difficult issue is where sick people feel that they are a burden on relatives and friends and make a decision based on their 'guilty' feeling that they are ruining the lives of others. How you 'police' such cases I don't know. In Egypt the family are expected to look after sick and dying family so this problem probably doesn't arise - whereas it does in the West.
I would argue that this is the perfect time to let go.. Why wait till you are dead to realise that ? :cg
Do Not do things out of guilt, if you can no longer enjoy life, and there is no role for you to play with a sick body,
and the enjoyment of life has subsided, only YOU and YOU alone can answer the question and make that decision.

Your family may want you to go on, but who is that serving ? You or them ?

Parents, they hang on to their creations..
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Winged Isis » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:10 pm

Chocolate Eclair wrote:Talking of assisted suicide has anyone heard about that British man who kept going to the high courts to ask permission for his wife to help him die. his mind was fine but his body had something called 'Locked in Syndrone" or is this the same case you are talking about?
LOCKED-IN SYNDROME SUFFERER DIES
AAP
Updated August 23, 2012, 6:11 am

Locked-in syndrome sufferer Tony Nicklinson, who lost his High Court battle last week for the legal right to end his life when he chooses with a doctor's help, died on Wednesday, his lawyers said.

In a brief statement, Bindmans LLP said Mr Nicklinson, from Melksham, Trowbridge, died on Wednesday morning at home.

"This is to notify you of the sad death of Tony Nicklinson at approximately 10am," the law firm said.

The brief statement also asked for the family's privacy to be respected.

No further details were issued about the circumstances of Mr Nicklinson's death.

Britain's High Court recently rejected an attempt by Mr Nicklinson to overturn the country's euthanasia law by refusing to legally allow doctors to end his life.

Mr Nicklinson had a stroke in 2005 that left him unable to speak or move below his neck. He requires constant care and communicates mostly by blinking, although his mind has remained unaffected and his condition is not terminal.

In January, the 58-year-old asked the High Court to declare that any doctor who kills him with his consent will not be charged with murder.

The High Court ruled that challenges from Nicklinson and another man named only as Martin to allow others to help them die without being prosecuted were a matter for parliament to decide.

Nicklinson said he was "devastated and heartbroken" and planned to appeal the decision.

"I am saddened that the law wants to condemn me to a life of increasing indignity and misery," he said in a statement.

Martin, 47, also has locked-in syndrome and asked for the court to allow professionals to help him die either by withholding food and water or by helping him go to a clinic in Switzerland to die. His wife said she respected his wishes, but does not want to help kill him.

Locked-in syndrome is a rare neurological disorder where patients are completely paralysed, and only able to blink. Patients are conscious and don't have any intellectual problems, but they are unable to speak or move.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/worl ... erer-dies/
Carpe diem! :le:

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Who2 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:19 am

August 2012...
Assisted Dying Bill:http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/assist ... ying-bill/

Being debated today, if not today one year soon this will become law, not because of individual rights but the fact that those in control know that there are just too many old people on this planet costing them too much money.
I have been aware of this fact since I was in my 20's and watching this brilliant film....:cool:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Remember! Tuesday is Soylent Green Day....
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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:28 am

One way to convince Governments of anything, if it pays ( them ) it stays.

I wonder how much the Government are going to make out of this venture ?
there is bound to be a tax involved, and one of their masters ( insurance companies ) are now not going to be able to prevent payouts on suicide's because the only justification was that suicide was illegal. ( probably a law made to favour insurance companies )

As I said before, they can do what they want, I know how to end my life with dignity and still meet my maker with a smile on my face... :cool:
( oh and I have never ever taken out life insurance ) :cg
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by newcastle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:37 pm

Bullet Magnet wrote:One way to convince Governments of anything, if it pays ( them ) it stays.

I wonder how much the Government are going to make out of this venture ?
there is bound to be a tax involved, and one of their masters ( insurance companies ) are now not going to be able to prevent payouts on suicide's because the only justification was that suicide was illegal. ( probably a law made to favour insurance companies )

As I said before, they can do what they want, I know how to end my life with dignity and still meet my maker with a smile on my face... :cool:
( oh and I have never ever taken out life insurance ) :cg
I think you will continue to find a clause in any life policy disclaiming liability where the insured takes his or her own life. Common sense really....nothing to do with the legality or otherwise of suicide (which has been 'legal' for some years incidentally)

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:23 pm

Hmm, so why don't Insurance companies pay out when you commit suicide ? after all, you have to be seriously ill either physically or mentally to do that, so it should be classed as end of life, so a payout is due...
Why would a Government condone such action by Insurance companies ?
Also if suicide is legal then why cant you do it ?
They are rhetoric questions not directed at anyone BTW..

Back in 1961 they only dropped the law for failed suicide, after all, you cannot prevent anyone from killing themselves really, and a successful attempt would leave the law powerless to do anything anyway..

Personally I think this argument is all about nothing really, if only people think for themselves and educate themselves better, instead of depending upon governments and the state to sort it out.
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by newcastle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:01 pm

Bullet Magnet wrote:Hmm, so why don't Insurance companies pay out when you commit suicide ? after all, you have to be seriously ill either physically or mentally to do that, so it should be classed as end of life, so a payout is due...
Why would a Government condone such action by Insurance companies ?
Also if suicide is legal then why cant you do it ?
They are rhetoric questions not directed at anyone BTW..

Back in 1961 they only dropped the law for failed suicide, after all, you cannot prevent anyone from killing themselves really, and a successful attempt would leave the law powerless to do anything anyway..

Personally I think this argument is all about nothing really, if only people think for themselves and educate themselves better, instead of depending upon governments and the state to sort it out.

Suicide never was an offence. Attempted suicide was....but no longer is. The proposed law is concerned with "assisting" someone to commit suicide. That IS an offence under current legislation and the new law is designed to remove this offence, subject to stringent safeguards.

Insurance companies usually have a "except in case of suicide" proviso simply so they don't get ripped off by people killing themselves to benefit their family. Quite right too. The fact that you might be mentally unstable or terminally ill is irrelevant. Many companies will actually pay out to a terminally ill patient - subject to medical opinion etc. that the insured has less than 6 months to live.

Anyone contemplating suicide - assisted or otherwise - should bear in mind that their action will almost certainly invalidate their life insurance cover.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Brian Yare » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:08 pm

newcastle wrote:Suicide never was an offence. Attempted suicide was....but no longer is.
If attempted suicide was an offence then a successful attempt was also an offence. It is just that there is no defendant to stand trial.

And the above, and the preceding thread, will depend on where the suicide or attempted suicide takes place.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:36 pm

Bullet Magnet wrote:
As I said before, they can do what they want, I know how to end my life with dignity and still meet my maker with a smile on my face... :cool:
( oh and I have never ever taken out life insurance ) :cg
Meet "your maker"with a smile on your face BM?
Yeah..I can understand that.
I digress slightly here,but just wanna share something with you,and I don't think it's particularly morbid!
As you know,I have Lithuanian heritage.Now..the Lithuanians are VERY devout in their death rituals.
None of my Lithuanian relatives were ever buried in shrouds.Their bodies were dressed in their best outfits..cos they believed strongly that only their "finest"attire was worthy to meet and greet their "maker."
Every time my Lithuanian granny got a new outfit,the previous "best" was relegated to "day wear"and the new one was kept good for the coffin!
There are even fotos in old family albums of the deceaseds coffins placed upright and the loved ones resplendent in their good frocks/best suits,etc.
My old dad will be treated the same!It'll be his good suit,shirt and tie,best shoes,etc when his time comes!
It's our tradition and culture..and anything else would be an insult to him!
Not only will he meet his maker with a smile..but he'll be able bodied,fit and well,and suitably attired!

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by newcastle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Brian Yare wrote:
newcastle wrote:Suicide never was an offence. Attempted suicide was....but no longer is.
If attempted suicide was an offence then a successful attempt was also an offence. It is just that there is no defendant to stand trial.

And the above, and the preceding thread, will depend on where the suicide or attempted suicide takes place.
Technically, yes, prior to 1961 suicide was an offence...albeit an "unpunishable" one. This was under English Law. Under Scots law there was no offence of "suicide"

What has the location of the suicide , or attempted suicide, got to do with anything under current law?

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by newcastle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:52 pm

Scottishtourist wrote:
Bullet Magnet wrote:
As I said before, they can do what they want, I know how to end my life with dignity and still meet my maker with a smile on my face... :cool:
( oh and I have never ever taken out life insurance ) :cg
Meet "your maker"with a smile on your face BM?
Yeah..I can understand that.
I digress slightly here,but just wanna share something with you,and I don't think it's particularly morbid!
As you know,I have Lithuanian heritage.Now..the Lithuanians are VERY devout in their death rituals.
None of my Lithuanian relatives were ever buried in shrouds.Their bodies were dressed in their best outfits..cos they believed strongly that only their "finest"attire was worthy to meet and greet their "maker."
Every time my Lithuanian granny got a new outfit,the previous "best" was relegated to "day wear"and the new one was kept good for the coffin!
There are even fotos in old family albums of the deceaseds coffins placed upright and the loved ones resplendent in their good frocks/best suits,etc.
My old dad will be treated the same!It'll be his good suit,shirt and tie,best shoes,etc when his time comes!
It's our tradition and culture..and anything else would be an insult to him!
Not only will he meet his maker with a smile..but he'll be able bodied,fit and well,and suitably attired!
Burying your nearest & dearest in their best attire (or sometimes an outfit with some significance or relevance) is pretty common in the UK.

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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Who2 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:53 pm

Here you go my advert for http://www.buryudeadquick.com...:cool:
"Enjoy...
phpBB [video]

Ps: don't get tears on your keyboards...
shame that they messed up Beethoven's "Symphony 6 (The Pastoral)
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Re: Assisted Suicide the Question ?

Post by Who2 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:57 pm

As I don't want to rob you here is the whole 40 minutes 'chill.......:cool:
phpBB [video]

Top Tip: Put it on LOUD and go make a cuppa, peel the spuds, have a stella!
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

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