Racial and other descrimination

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Brian Yare
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Racial and other descrimination

Post by Brian Yare » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:27 pm

While I understand Keefy's wish to lock another thread, I think that there is a wider issue worthy of discussion: whether it is appropriate or ethical to advertise a job for a particular subsection of the population. Having had to open a new thread I cannot simultaneously see the exact wording of the other post. I guess that discrimination on any grounds is legal in Egypt. :-(



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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Dusak » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:25 am

There could be many legitimate reasons for this and as long as the person employed has his/her work permit then they are working within the law. These permits are quite expensive and if the person to be employed has to foot that payment themselves, then a waiters job may not warrant the outlay taking into consideration the general low pay and good tip days are a thing of the past given the currant climate.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Brian Yare » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:52 pm

Dusak wrote:There could be many legitimate reasons for this and as long as the person employed has his/her work permit then they are working within the law. These permits are quite expensive and if the person to be employed has to foot that payment themselves, then a waiters job may not warrant the outlay taking into consideration the general low pay and good tip days are a thing of the past given the currant climate.
(after apologising for the typo in the subject line)

There are a very few jobs that can reasonably discriminate on applications. The one at the Lantern did not appear to be one of these. The law in Egypt is probably 40 years behind that in western Europe ...

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by HEPZIBAH » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:57 pm

I could be wrong but I understood that there are employment laws in Egypt that state some sort of percentage on Egyptian:Foreigner employee ratio. I don't know what those figures are but if I'm right it could actually put a positive spin on the subject because if a foreigner is employed that should mean that there x number more Egyptians being employed.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Dusak » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:36 am

The Lantern staffing levels are of course predominately Egyptian. They did used to employ a European girl to wait on about three or so years ago. I see nothing wrong in this, in fact it could prove useful to the Egyptian staff in regards to communication towards diners. One thing that bugs me when venturing out is that you and others sat at the table have ordered steak and chips, but have to ask for, then wait for the vinegar and tomato ketchup to arrive.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Glyphdoctor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:49 am

The law says a company can employ up to a certain percentage of foreigners, but only in positions for which no qualified Egyptian can be found. Their qualifications must be proven, with a minimum of a bachelor's degree. And most recently they instituted a law that they must train their replacements and their work visa is only for 3 years, although there is a grandfather clause for those who have been here longer.

There are a few exceptions with specially negotiated rules, e.g. foreign archaeological missions that are temporarily in the country, AUC (which has to maintain a certain balance of Egyptian, American and third country nationals as professors).

For any food and beverage server position in the country, I do not see how it would be possible to not find an Egyptian, with the fact that a food and beverage bachelor's degree from Egyptian universities is quite common. Even if they need certain foreign language skills beyond what is normally taught, it might be possible with experience to get someone up to speed. There is a Korean restaurant here in Cairo that has Korean speaking Egyptian waiters. I remember once when dining there the waiter told us he had worked there for 12 years. He might not have known Korean when he started but he obviously had time to become fluent in the language.

I know of student run Chinese restaurants here that employ foreigners to server food-but they are normally either Chinese or African students. It's not legal either, but it isn't strange that people from poorer countries would accept such jobs. But who comes from a wealthy country to work as waitstaff? You have to be desperate or most likely highly unqualified for anything to agree to that.

I can see hiring a foreign chef because he may know how to make a certain cuisine that is unfamiliar to Egyptians and I think that can be justified, but for waitstaff really no excuse.

Then throw in the mix that it is culturally unacceptable for females to wait tables. I have never ever seen a waitress anywhere, although I know of one exception. I was told that the old Ali Baba establishment had to bring waitresses from Alexandria because no female from Luxor would work in such a job. To hire a foreign female for such a job is making a mockery of her and she probably doesn't even realize it.

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by HEPZIBAH » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:26 am

Glyphdoctor, thank you for clarifying the situation regarding employment laws.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Who2 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:52 am

Quote GDr: I know of student run Chinese restaurants here that employ foreigners to server food-but they are normally either Chinese or African students.

Question ? Do these Chinese restaurants deliver ?
To Luxor….. :cool:
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Luxor Pharoahs » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:01 am

A few years ago we went out to celebrate our wedding anniversary, we ordered steak and all the trimmings and I fancied a beef curry, we got chicken shwarma, and baked fish. Instead of making a fuss because we had waited 1 hour for what we were offered we decided to eat what we had been offered, it was beautiful, on the main it was cold, undercooked, and bland. I will not name the place because I think a few ex pats may use it. We have never been near the place since.
I have also noticed some places are cutting back on quality, serving fish actually swimming on your plate, again cold food, oil drenched plates and bland tasting food. Nothing like home cooking, can always be relied upon for quality, quantity, and taste. I love grilled chicken but hate chicken that has been pre boiled and then grilled, like most, it's cheating and again bland and tasteless. So come on all you restaurant owners pull your socks up, some of us do know your short cuts.
Is this something to do with the staff they employ, Chef one day, builder the next, electrician one day, plumber the next, painter one day, coffee shop owner the next.
I look at the future and predict in a few years there will be one coffee shop for every Luxor resident, and enough kitchens to keep inspectors of health and hygiene busy for a lifetime, if there is such a group of people, who would not except a few quid to keep stun!

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Who2 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:59 am

Keefy has a special slot entitled Places Not Recommended, why don't you put these places on there as that's what it's there for… :cool:
Ps: If it's crap share it!
Pss: A British food critque once complained twice about his crap food in a famous New York restaurant, the chef appeared in tears thanking him, as no New Yorkers had companied allowing his standards to slip, if it's sh*t tell them they might just not know, you are doing a service rather than a disservice.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Dusak » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:21 pm

I think that your comments concerning the restaurants in Luxor are vastly over exaggerated. Now and again you will be served with a mini disaster, just like in the kitchen at home. As Who2, chef of the year states, name and bring them to the fore so we can asses them for ourselves especially as you say expats may use them as it is a well known fact that we are a dieing dining race, I would prefer to be a victim of natural wastage than food poisoning. :sk
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by HEPZIBAH » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:26 pm

Luxor Pharoahs wrote:A few years ago we went out to celebrate our wedding anniversary, we ordered steak and all the trimmings and I fancied a beef curry, we got chicken shwarma, and baked fish. Instead of making a fuss because we had waited 1 hour for what we were offered we decided to eat what we had been offered, it was beautiful, on the main it was cold, undercooked, and bland. I will not name the place because I think a few ex pats may use it. We have never been near the place since.
I have also noticed some places are cutting back on quality, serving fish actually swimming on your plate, again cold food, oil drenched plates and bland tasting food. Nothing like home cooking, can always be relied upon for quality, quantity, and taste. I love grilled chicken but hate chicken that has been pre boiled and then grilled, like most, it's cheating and again bland and tasteless. So come on all you restaurant owners pull your socks up, some of us do know your short cuts.
Is this something to do with the staff they employ, Chef one day, builder the next, electrician one day, plumber the next, painter one day, coffee shop owner the next.
I look at the future and predict in a few years there will be one coffee shop for every Luxor resident, and enough kitchens to keep inspectors of health and hygiene busy for a lifetime, if there is such a group of people, who would not except a few quid to keep stun!
Isn't it amazing how a quick sentence added hastily before the edit period times out can suddenly [almost] make a post appear to be on topic, when until then it was clearly going way off topic and back to the usual negative format.

As others have said, name and shame. If it's not good enough for you then you should let others know so that they can avoid or reassess for themselves.

Which reminds me, has the Auberge - I think that was the name of the high class restaurant you were promoting a while back, before it had even opened, finally opened? If so, does it come up to your fine dining expectations?
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Dusak » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:08 am

HEPZIBAH wrote:
Luxor Pharoahs wrote:A few years ago we went out to celebrate our wedding anniversary, we ordered steak and all the trimmings and I fancied a beef curry, we got chicken shwarma, and baked fish. Instead of making a fuss because we had waited 1 hour for what we were offered we decided to eat what we had been offered, it was beautiful, on the main it was cold, undercooked, and bland. I will not name the place because I think a few ex pats may use it. We have never been near the place since.
I have also noticed some places are cutting back on quality, serving fish actually swimming on your plate, again cold food, oil drenched plates and bland tasting food. Nothing like home cooking, can always be relied upon for quality, quantity, and taste. I love grilled chicken but hate chicken that has been pre boiled and then grilled, like most, it's cheating and again bland and tasteless. So come on all you restaurant owners pull your socks up, some of us do know your short cuts.
Is this something to do with the staff they employ, Chef one day, builder the next, electrician one day, plumber the next, painter one day, coffee shop owner the next.
I look at the future and predict in a few years there will be one coffee shop for every Luxor resident, and enough kitchens to keep inspectors of health and hygiene busy for a lifetime, if there is such a group of people, who would not except a few quid to keep stun!
Isn't it amazing how a quick sentence added hastily before the edit period times out can suddenly [almost] make a post appear to be on topic, when until then it was clearly going way off topic and back to the usual negative format.

As others have said, name and shame. If it's not good enough for you then you should let others know so that they can avoid or reassess for themselves.

Which reminds me, has the Auberge - I think that was the name of the high class restaurant you were promoting a while back, before it had even opened, finally opened? If so, does it come up to your fine dining expectations?
I was raising scabs on my head scratching away in an attempt to think of this aforementioned restaurant HEPZIBAH, as I remembered the two other occasions that almost identical posts were made bestowing the virtues of home cooking versus going out and receiving all things that are supposed to be eatable found to be swimming around in glug. They say there are only seven possible topics for the creative mind to consider when producing a story line plot. Sometimes we find ourselves stuck on the same two. :lol:
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Who2 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:23 am

l'Auberge was one of Ramsay's failures in Chelsea if my memory serves me correctly… :cool:
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:21 am

Who2 wrote:l'Auberge was one of Ramsay's failures in Chelsea if my memory serves me correctly… :cool:
I think it may have been someone else's failures on the West Bank too if memory serves me right.

It is possible I have got the wrong name of the restaurant but I certainly remember the posts about it.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Brian Yare » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:33 pm

Are you by any chance thinking of "Aux Trois Chacals", that closed a couple of years ago? :eat

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:50 pm

Brian Yare wrote:Are you by any chance thinking of "Aux Trois Chacals", that closed a couple of years ago? :eat
No.
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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Bombay » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:30 pm

Don't think the one on the West Bank ever opened probably realised its not as easy thing to do as some of us make it appear.

The ratio is 8 Egyptians to 1 foreigner work permit and waitressing does not qualify as a special skill.

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Brian Yare » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Bombay wrote:Don't think the one on the West Bank ever opened probably realised its not as easy thing to do as some of us make it appear.

The ratio is 8 Egyptians to 1 foreigner work permit and waitressing does not qualify as a special skill.
What about waitering?

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Re: Racial and other descrimination

Post by Bombay » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:35 pm

Brian Yare wrote:
Bombay wrote:Don't think the one on the West Bank ever opened probably realised its not as easy thing to do as some of us make it appear.

The ratio is 8 Egyptians to 1 foreigner work permit and waitressing does not qualify as a special skill.
What about waitering?
Anything the EMPLOYMENT OFFICE (no one else) decides can be done by an Egyptian does not qualify for work permission.