... is the title of an extremely readable (and lengthy!) article in today's Guardian. As an analysis of many of the problems that are ongoing here, it's an excellent article, comparing the Tunisian version with the Egyptian one.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ap ... rotherhood
Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network
- LivinginLuxor
- Top Member
- Posts: 991
- Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:50 am
- Location: Luxor, Egypt
- Been thanked: 249 times
- Gender:
- Contact:
- Grandad
- Senior Member
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:13 pm
- Location: SE England
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 163 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
Very interesting Stan and it fills in some of the background to Egypts current political/religious situation. A long article as you said but well worth reading.
Grandad
- Dusak
- Egyptian Pharaoh
- Posts: 6190
- Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
- Location: LUXOR
- Has thanked: 3241 times
- Been thanked: 3812 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
Sorry I thought it was one of your quiz questions. I was going to answer Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashfull, Sneezy and Dopey. Suppose the last one will have to refer to me.
- Bullet Magnet
- Royal V.I.P
- Posts: 2530
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:38 am
- Location: Le Manège Enchanté
- Has thanked: 5362 times
- Been thanked: 1475 times
- Contact:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
I was going to read it, but I only have about 38 years of my lifetime left...
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.
- Grandad
- Senior Member
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:13 pm
- Location: SE England
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 163 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
@ Dusak
But I try not to say anything provocative Dusak in case they won't let me in next time
Or even better won't let me out
@ BM You could read it as a bedtime story......It would see you out
But I try not to say anything provocative Dusak in case they won't let me in next time
Or even better won't let me out
@ BM You could read it as a bedtime story......It would see you out
Grandad
- Chocolate Eclair
- Royal V.I.P
- Posts: 1621
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:56 pm
- Location: Luxor Egypt
- Has thanked: 37 times
- Been thanked: 300 times
- Gender:
- Contact:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
If you ask around Luxor who the MB is, everyone seems to have thought they know, and now nobody seems to know. Everything is very low profile in Egypt at the moment. I will be suprised if the strings attached to any IMF loan are not tight and stringent, due to the fact there is no democratic government or no real and proper security at the moment.
I feel these should be addressed first to ensure the rest of the worlds confidence in our Country.
I feel these should be addressed first to ensure the rest of the worlds confidence in our Country.
- Hafiz
- V.I.P
- Posts: 1284
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:23 pm
- Has thanked: 614 times
- Been thanked: 632 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
LivinginLuxor - Thanks for the article.
As you know the author has/had lived in Cairo for a few years: which is more local experience than most others who write about Egypt at the moment. Even though he writes for the red rag the article is thoughtful and anyone interested in Egyptian politics should read it.
Where I differ is that the Brotherhood, like any large movement, covers a range of opinion (think of the Conservative and Labor parties). For example Fotouh, who was expelled for strategy not policy reasons, had been a prominent brother for may years even though his views verged on the liberal. Of course there are others who are close to Salafis.
The other point, which he ignores. is an old law of politics - what you promise from opposition is frequently not possible in Government and other than shuffling around a few deckchairs the brothers are learning that governing and implementing their promises is really hard. What they are not learning is that you always try to hold the middle ground (wherever that is). The author doesn't identify where the middle ground is but its not the Salvationists or the hooligans that he gives attention to in his article.
There is nothing in his article about opinion outside Cairo where most Egyptians live and where most of the Morsi support is. Kingsley's focus is Cairo and Cairo isn't Egypt.
He glosses over the fact that not only do the Salvationists have no leadership they also have no policies other than anti FJP/Morsi.
Kingsley, like others, has difficulty in working out who the opposition are and ignores the fact that some, like the soccer hooligans, are just out for a fight.
His views on Tunisia are just wrong. The President (few powers) is a liberal Muslim and exercises real influence. Recent effective demonstrations against the Government show there is a better balance of power than in Egypt and the Tunisian brothers are more flexible. Their literacy rate, standard of living, close cultural contact with Italy and France, absence of religious minorities, a better economy with a bigger middle class all make the comparison with Egypt absurd. The brotherhood in Turkey, Tunisia, Syria etc are all different and reflect local conditions and comparisons are always dodgy.
As you know the author has/had lived in Cairo for a few years: which is more local experience than most others who write about Egypt at the moment. Even though he writes for the red rag the article is thoughtful and anyone interested in Egyptian politics should read it.
Where I differ is that the Brotherhood, like any large movement, covers a range of opinion (think of the Conservative and Labor parties). For example Fotouh, who was expelled for strategy not policy reasons, had been a prominent brother for may years even though his views verged on the liberal. Of course there are others who are close to Salafis.
The other point, which he ignores. is an old law of politics - what you promise from opposition is frequently not possible in Government and other than shuffling around a few deckchairs the brothers are learning that governing and implementing their promises is really hard. What they are not learning is that you always try to hold the middle ground (wherever that is). The author doesn't identify where the middle ground is but its not the Salvationists or the hooligans that he gives attention to in his article.
There is nothing in his article about opinion outside Cairo where most Egyptians live and where most of the Morsi support is. Kingsley's focus is Cairo and Cairo isn't Egypt.
He glosses over the fact that not only do the Salvationists have no leadership they also have no policies other than anti FJP/Morsi.
Kingsley, like others, has difficulty in working out who the opposition are and ignores the fact that some, like the soccer hooligans, are just out for a fight.
His views on Tunisia are just wrong. The President (few powers) is a liberal Muslim and exercises real influence. Recent effective demonstrations against the Government show there is a better balance of power than in Egypt and the Tunisian brothers are more flexible. Their literacy rate, standard of living, close cultural contact with Italy and France, absence of religious minorities, a better economy with a bigger middle class all make the comparison with Egypt absurd. The brotherhood in Turkey, Tunisia, Syria etc are all different and reflect local conditions and comparisons are always dodgy.
- biosceptic
- Junior Member
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:10 pm
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 76 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
Hafiz,
From the various recent discussions I understand that the Salafis are on the conservative side of the spectrum but I don't recognise who the Salvationists are. Where do these groups and the urban liberals, Sunnis, Shiites and other groups fit in to current Egyptian politics. You said that Cairo is not Egypt, I assume you mean it is more liberal and less conservative? Are most Egyptians city dwellers or are they rural?
Every time I see news articles related to the Coptic population I get the feeling they are sometimes a convenient group to blame for all the ills of Egypt, when the blame doesn't fall on Expats, Americans or Foreigners in general.
Is my interpretation accurate or is it all just selective media coverage?
From the various recent discussions I understand that the Salafis are on the conservative side of the spectrum but I don't recognise who the Salvationists are. Where do these groups and the urban liberals, Sunnis, Shiites and other groups fit in to current Egyptian politics. You said that Cairo is not Egypt, I assume you mean it is more liberal and less conservative? Are most Egyptians city dwellers or are they rural?
Every time I see news articles related to the Coptic population I get the feeling they are sometimes a convenient group to blame for all the ills of Egypt, when the blame doesn't fall on Expats, Americans or Foreigners in general.
Is my interpretation accurate or is it all just selective media coverage?
- Hafiz
- V.I.P
- Posts: 1284
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:23 pm
- Has thanked: 614 times
- Been thanked: 632 times
- Gender:
Re: Who are the Muslim Brotherhood?
Biosceptic.You are mostly right.
For all my criticisms the article posted by LivinginLuxor is probably the best going. My comments were carping and I should have kept them to myself.
The Salavtionists are a new umbrella group of urban liberals and secularists but also includes old style nationalists and socialists as well as supporters of the previous dictatorship. Its difficult to know, and in any case they are more of an ill organized gang rather than a loose alliance and their policies are few and negative.
There are no/few Shia in Egypt.
A lot of the western press on Egypt is desk top analysis (as are my comments) so you need to be skeptical particularly when they talk about mad mullahs and solid blocks of extremists.
I stand to be corrected but there are no/few examples in the past 2 years of bad behavior directed at ex-pats or foreigners as a group. Given all the trouble going on this is a fact (if fact it be) which should get a lot more attention than it does. The only exception reported that I can recall was an attack on a Cairo hotel about a year ago with no westerners injured. All leaders criticized it.
These are views from 10,000 ks and years since I last visited. The views of people like LivinginLuxor are much better informed and balanced.
For all my criticisms the article posted by LivinginLuxor is probably the best going. My comments were carping and I should have kept them to myself.
The Salavtionists are a new umbrella group of urban liberals and secularists but also includes old style nationalists and socialists as well as supporters of the previous dictatorship. Its difficult to know, and in any case they are more of an ill organized gang rather than a loose alliance and their policies are few and negative.
There are no/few Shia in Egypt.
A lot of the western press on Egypt is desk top analysis (as are my comments) so you need to be skeptical particularly when they talk about mad mullahs and solid blocks of extremists.
I stand to be corrected but there are no/few examples in the past 2 years of bad behavior directed at ex-pats or foreigners as a group. Given all the trouble going on this is a fact (if fact it be) which should get a lot more attention than it does. The only exception reported that I can recall was an attack on a Cairo hotel about a year ago with no westerners injured. All leaders criticized it.
These are views from 10,000 ks and years since I last visited. The views of people like LivinginLuxor are much better informed and balanced.
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
- 3 Replies
- 705 Views
-
Last post by Hafiz
-
- 3 Replies
- 684 Views
-
Last post by LovelyLadyLux
-
- 6 Replies
- 962 Views
-
Last post by Dusak
-
- 8 Replies
- 1123 Views
-
Last post by Brian Yare
-
- 5 Replies
- 635 Views
-
Last post by Dusak