Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

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Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by DJKeefy » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:12 pm

Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence by Morsi loyalists.

Churches across Egypt came under frenzied attack Thursday as the country became convulsed in violent turmoil after security forces forcibly broke up two major Cairo protest camps held by supporters of deposed Islamist president Mohamed Morsi.

Incensed by the bloody crackdown that has claimed more than 500 lives, Morsi loyalists orchestrated nationwide assaults on Christian targets, wreaking havoc on churches, homes, and Christian-owned businesses throughout the country.

Coptic rights group the Maspero Youth Union (MYU) estimated that as many as 36 churches were "completely" devastated by fire across nine Egyptian governorates, including Minya, Sohag and Assiut — home to large Coptic communities.

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The group, alongside media reports, said that many other churches were looted or stormed in ensuing street violence Wednesday.

Egypt's interior ministry told reporters in Cairo Wednesday that at least seven churches were ruined or torched by suspected Islamists.

MYU spokesman Antwan Adel said at least two were confirmed dead — in the cities of Minya and Alexandria — during the anti-Coptic attacks. No independent confirmation of this tally has appeared.

Adel deplored what he termed "criminal acts and terrorist perception" of the Muslim Brotherhood, the group from which deposed president Morsi hailed. "They seek to drive a wedge between Christians and Muslims," Adel told Ahram Online.

"It's Christians in Egypt who pay the price to overthrow tyranny," Adel said, citing sectarian incidents under long-time strongman Hosni Mubarak through until now.

The sectarian conflagration has set off fears of deeper polarisation and insecurity amongst Christians in a predominantly Sunni Muslim state. Coptic Christians — Egypt's largest minority — make up some 10 percent of Egypt’s population

The Upper Egypt governorate of Minya was scene of the lion's share of ًWednesday's attacks. The MYU put the number of churches assaulted in the city alone at 11, with some "completely burnt."

Gebrial Dafshan of Minya's Christians Youth Centre (Al-Wady), which was stormed and engulfed by flames, blamed lax security on the part of the government at Coptic facilities.

"There was no security presence. Even when we called the Fire Department for help they said they were themselves being attacked," Dafsahn said.

Morsi's Islamist backers set dozens of police stations ablaze across Egypt and attempted to storm provincal governor offices. A group of Morsi supporters also set fire to the finance ministry building in Cairo's Nasr City district, a few miles away from a main Cairo protest camp they manned for six weeks.

Some Coptic Christians appear understanding what they deem was "the inevitable" violence that would result from dealing with Islamist "terrorists." Yet critics say there should have been pre-emptive measures taken by both the army and police for what appeared to be a likely scenario of widespread violence.

Forty-one people were killed in Minya Wednesday in violence sparked by security forces storming pro-Morsi camps in Cairo, health ministry officials said.

On Thursday, Egyptian authorities referred 84 people from the canal city of Suez — including members and supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood movement — to military prosecutors on charges of murder and burning churches, state news agency MENA reported.

Egypt's interim premier, Hazem El-Beblawi, condemned the "criminal acts" against Copts in a telephone conversation with Coptic Pope Tawadros II, who threw his weight behind the army's ouster of Morsi early in July. El-Beblawi vowed to deal strictly with "terrorism," asserting that "unity between Muslims and Christians is a red line."

Egypt's army chief General Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi pledged the military would cover the costs of restoration for all damaged churches.

Egypt's health ministry said Thursday that some 525 people were killed and more than 3717 injured across Egypt Wednesday, leaving the most populous Arab nation in ferment.

The unrest led the interim government to declare a month-long state of emergency, with a daily curfew between 7:00pm and 6:00am in Cairo and 13 other governorates.

Vice President Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Prize laureate who gave his blessing to the ousting of Egypt's first freely elected president, resigned in protest at the use of force instead of pursuing a political resolution to the six-week stand-off between the army-installed government and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Source: http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/79124.aspx


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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:23 pm

No, no, Keefy. This article must be inaccurate! It's all propaganda and totally untrue. No Coptic Churches have been burned or damaged. The MB are not attacking Copts at all! How do I know this? Because Jewel in her infinite wisdom says so of course! :lol:

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:37 am

Au contraire TT you are absolutely correct.....it is the extremists again, just like the Palestinians and Hamas attacking the Jews and suicide bombers....it's what they do in the name of Mohamed, the religion of peace! :lol:

Seriously though there has been a history of attacks on Coptics going back decades and this is just the latest. It has very little to do with the MB. The breakdown in law and order in Egypt has just facilitated the attacks.
I read of attacks back in May where the trigger was a feud between families - one Coptic the other Muslim.
Anti-Coptic sentiment appears to be endemic in Egyptian society but is usually constrained by the security forces to localised incidents. Maybe if there were more Jews in Egypt they would be the target!
The MB are exploiting matters to demonstrate that the Military cant provide security, which is typically the first phase of any guerrilla war.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:43 am

Well apparently the army will meet the costs of any damages or pay compensation, I have been outside my restaurants with molotov cocktails for two days but no one will throw one in :!:

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:20 am

Actually Jewel, it is my understanding that Hamas are an organisation who were originally born out of the Muslim Brotherhood and they are strongly affiliated today. Morsi's connections with Hamas were one of the opposition's main concerns during his Presidency.

Copt's were discriminated against under the Mubarak regime for sure. But actual persecution and violent attacks against Copts escalated dramatically following the revolution and even more so during the Morsi administration. But that's got nothing to do with the MB? Well, it would seem that it has Jewel, as they and other Islamists appear to be the ones responsible for the current attacks!

And the MB 'trying to exploit matters to demonstrate that the Military can't maintain security' ?Well maybe they are. But I think the dispersals yesterday were an indication that the Military can indeed maintain security. Unfortunately, in the presence of extreme resistance and disruption this will sometimes necessitate the use of force. And that has the Western Governments and individuals such as yourself shouting 'foul'.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Dusak » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:47 am

Although I agree that most attacks on the Christians and their churches, businesses and homes have certainly escalated since the revolution because if was far safer and easier to get away with it, some must also be attributed to the ordinary Muslim with little or no interest in politics, but have an inbred hatred for Christians. They do exist.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:09 am

Yes, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim!! That is an oxymoron by definition :lol: And that is the problem. They all follow the Koran or else they are not Muslims, and are apostates as seen time and again. Look at the conflict that exists between the Sunni and Shia sects in countries all around the Middle East.
Islam is the ideology of supremacism, violence and hate that compels the relentless war on non-Muslims and secular Muslims (apostates). Until we face reality (and truth is the recognition of reality), we are all in great peril.
Islam is a vile, destructive cult which teaches lying, misleading and eventually murdering all those who oppose Allah. Their goal, world dominance by killing the infidels. You will never see that in the mainstream( lame stream) media.

Even some of those reputed to be “moderates” admit this. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan of Turkey, a country that up until recently had been considered the embodiment of “moderate” Islam, declared in 2009:

The ‘moderate Islam’ concept is wrong. The word ‘Islam’ is a simple word – it is only Islam. If you say ‘moderate Islam,’ then an alternative is created, and that is ‘immoderate Islam.’ I cannot accept such a concept as a Muslim.”

Obama repeatedly again last week that the U.S. is not at war with Islam. Indeed. But Islam is at war with the West. Not all Muslims, but a critical mass. Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all members of the Nazi Party were eager for war or Holocaust. But the ideology was bankrupt. The “moderate” Muslims of today are about as effective in stemming the tide of savagery as the anti-Nazi “good Germans” were.
As the Turkish prime minister would say - there is no moderate Islam, there is no extreme Islam. Islam is Islam. I think that Egypt is waking up to this reality, and where will it evolve from here I wonder?
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bullet Magnet » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:30 am

Quote: Obama repeatedly again last week that the U.S. is not at war with Islam. Indeed. But Islam is at war with the West.

So, which Western countries has the Islamic Armies invaded ?

just coz Obama said something, does not make it true, quite the reverse in fact.. The West has illegally invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, .......

Religion is just used as the "Separator" ...
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:02 pm

Make no mistake Islam IS at war with the west.
Are you familiar with the film "obsession" BM?
Obsession is a film about the threat of Radical Islam to Western civilization. Using unique footage from Arab television, it reveals an ‘insider’s view’ of the hatred the Radicals are teaching, their incitement of global jihad, and their goal of world domination. The film also traces the parallels between the Nazi movement of World War II, the Radicals of today, and the Western world’s response to both threats. Featuring interviews with Daniel Pipes, Steve Emerson, Alan Dershowitz, a former PLO terrorist, and a former Hitler Youth Commander.
All Muslims are potential jihadists, it is in the Qur'an. Islam is not a peaceful religion as Egypt is finding out.
We here in the UK are not at war with Islam. Not only are we not at war with Islam, but our politicians and the media are doing everything they can to make it clear that they don’t want to be at war with Islam.
Unfortunately, none of this changes the sad fact that many of Islam’s followers are at war with us.
In fact, Islam has been at war with its neighbours since its inception.
The Qur'an itself tells us how Mohammed butchered those who stood in his way.
In Egypt this is clear to see, and the situation will only get much much worse, until people give up the old outdated religion and culture which stands in the way of peace and progress, and use the ballot box instead of the mosque!!

The trouble is people don't want to admit it, they don't want it to be true, but it is. The fact is that we are at war.
Here in the UK action needs to be taken against the enemy which is Islam.
We need to clamp down on extremist preachers and the mosques that continue to host them.
We need to kick the extremists off our streets and out of our country.
Quite simply, we need to cut out the cancer that is Islam.

Religion a separator?? Islam certainly is. :roll:
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bullet Magnet » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:34 pm

My point is Jewel that the West started all this anti Muslim malarkey, to justify stealing their mineral wealth.
Its a subliminal form of racism..

Fact is, all these Muslims living in the UK probably had relatives in their homeland that we killed with our illegal wars,
so its hardly surprising that if we rape their land, there are not going to be some repercussions..

ALL actions have consequences...
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:58 pm

11972

16/08/2013 A painting from a girl in upper Egypt. It says it all.
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:04 pm

What does it say Hepzibah exactly? As it seems that whatever faith people had, or had in each other is gone out the window in Egypt right now, what about the massacred women and children? Just because they are MB that can be discounted?
Even in the protests in Wall Street blocking roads the US army didn't open fire, and no complaints from others of them being a nuisance.
How hypocritical these Muslims are, they go to the mosque to "pray" then come out and rape and murder in the name of "Allah" and have the audacity to preach to others!
And are all Christians innocent in their actions, I would say not from what I hear.
So much is wrong with Egyptian society, and the facade and pretence that people live by will come to a head, sooner rather than later it appears. Very tragic :(
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Brian Yare » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:24 pm

jewel wrote:what about the massacred women and children?(
If they put themselves in harm's way then they were not massacred.

Although I do not cite wikipedia as a reliable source, I read:

"A massacre is an incident where some group is killed by another, and the perpetrating party are perceived to be in total control of force while the victimized party is perceived to be helpless and/or innocent with regard to any legitimate offense. There is no clear-cut definition for when killings are referred to as massacres or not, rather, this choice is a result of an individual or collective assessment, depending e.g. on how the circumstances of the killing align with given ideas of acceptable use of force and on the desired status of an event in collective memory."

In Egypt, I do not see that the MB are "helpless and/or innocent with regard to any legitimate offense".

I realise that these women and children may be coerced/forced into harm's way by their relatives, but this is no excuse. They should be stronger and refuse to follow the party line.

Just my 2d worth of course.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:35 pm

jewel wrote:What does it say Hepzibah exactly? As it seems that whatever faith people had, or had in each other is gone out the window in Egypt right now, ....
The comment under the drawing by a child wasn't actually mine, it was copied along with the photo. It did seem to say though that, no matter if it was a drawing by a Muslim or a Christian child, there can be compassion and understanding between the different religions - and sometimes it takes a child to highlight this.

This photo would seem to be a good example of this too. Just as Christians have formed protective rings around Muslims at prayer times, so these Muslim men have formed a human barrier outside a Catholic church whilst mass is being said.

11974

I actually can't agree though that faith has gone out of the window. I believe that for many people their faith will have been strengthened.
jewel wrote:How hypocritical these Muslims are, they go to the mosque to "pray" then come out and rape and murder in the name of "Allah" and have the audacity to preach to others!
And are all Christians innocent in their actions, I would say not from what I hear.
So much is wrong with Egyptian society, and the facade and pretence that people live by will come to a head, sooner rather than later it appears. Very tragic :(
I am not so stupid or ignorant to think that all who call themselves, Muslim or Christian (Jew, Buddhist etc) cannot be hypocritical. But then I don't believe you are 'born' into a faith either but that it is/should be a personal decision (which generally removes much of the hypocrisy too). Equally, I don't believe all , regardless of faith/religion, are innocent either. What I do believe is that it is human nature to err and no matter who, regardless of any religion you may or may not have, or say you belong to, including those who say they have no faith or religion, we all have the power to act for good or evil.

jewel, your last sentance could apply to any country on this earth - including the UK!
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:15 pm

Yes Hepzibah it's true, but I do believe that religion is a construction, and what really really matters is that people live in peace, which means being mindful......respects ALL life, and has a compassionate heart. This is the principles that I try to keep to, and long ago gave upthe religion I was "born" into, and why I am emphatic that it is so so wrong to label someone who relinquishes their faith an " apostate " who should be killed.

That is going to be one of the hardest things in these Muslim cultures, to change deeply entrenched beliefs and views about this,and their approach to animals, women and others.
The one belief system I admire the most is Buddhism, as there have been no wars ever fought in the name of their faith.I am not naive enough to think that even they are not capable of hypocricsy, they are indeed. But the practice of buddhist principles encourages the individual to develop wisdom and understanding, which is in great need in Egypt today.
Perhaps they could all do a mass meditation for peace? Nice idea, but can't imagine it sadly :(
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Azurite » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:25 pm

Hepzibah .. The child's picture you have posted is really touching.

From my first visit in 1988, I met with lovely locals mostly obviously muslims, yet they never went on about it and going into shops and seeing the coptic cross tattoos on peoples wrists, all happy, good people getting on with life.

I just wish the evil of these political sects could be gotten rid of .... but how the rest of us are ever going to get it done ?

I don't know :ni:

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Scottishtourist » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:57 pm

I personally think the picture is very poignant and this child demonstrates more compassion and humility than many adults do.
In my view,THAT is what "religion"is all about.
Compassion,humility,tolerance,support,and acceptance of others faiths and beliefs.
With everything thats going on in Egypt at the moment..it is maybe a sign of hope and I thank Hepzibah for sharing it.
"To see the world as a child sees it"
"Out of the mouths of babes"
All these well worn phrases spring to mind.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Brian Yare » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:48 pm

I first found out about this incentive in a feature dated 1st April 2013, but this article is earlier:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/t ... -1-2843168

I originally accused it of being an April Fool, but was probably wrong.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by jewel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:59 am

I always thought that for a Muslim to enter a Christian church ( or Jewish synagogue ) was makrooh or forbidden, but could be mistaken. Will enquire further. :ni:
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by LivinginLuxor » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:14 am

"Yes, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim!! That is an oxymoron by definition :lol: And that is the problem. They all follow the Koran or else they are not Muslims, and are apostates as seen time and again. Look at the conflict that exists between the Sunni and Shia sects in countries all around the Middle East.
Islam is the ideology of supremacism, violence and hate that compels the relentless war on non-Muslims and secular Muslims (apostates). Until we face reality (and truth is the recognition of reality), we are all in great peril".

Replace the word Muslim with Christian, the word K0ran with Bible, and the words Sunni and Shia with Catholics and Protestants, and Middle East with the Western world and you will see just how ridiculous and uninformed are Jewel's comments!
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
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