Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Stevepj » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:00 pm

Bullet Magnet wrote:My point is Jewel that the West started all this anti Muslim malarkey, to justify stealing their mineral wealth.
Its a subliminal form of racism..

Fact is, all these Muslims living in the UK probably had relatives in their homeland that we killed with our illegal wars,
so its hardly surprising that if we rape their land, there are not going to be some repercussions..

ALL actions have consequences...
I'd hardly call paying $100+ for their oil stealing Bullet. And here was me thinking that all this "anti Muslim melarkey" started with the Arab sieges of Constantinople in 674 and 717 and their invasion of Spain in 711.



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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:39 pm

jewel wrote:I always thought that for a Muslim to enter a Christian church ( or Jewish synagogue ) was makrooh or forbidden, but could be mistaken. Will enquire further. :ni:
All depends what you think constitutes a "church"Jewel.
At end of the day it's a building of bricks and mortar,as is a mosque,as is a synagogue.
I don't have to go to any building to worship.
I could celebrate a Catholic Mass in my own living room,if I so desired.
Anyone who wanted could attend.
Didn't the early Christians celebrate Mass in ancient catacombs?
If a group of people gather together in worship,prayer and in God's name...it constitutes a "church."
Aside from that..my dad was a teacher and was very interested in languages.He worked with Pakistani colleague who taught him some phrases in Urdu.The colleague was Muslim.
A Pakistani family moved into our neighbourhood and bought over a local business (the local shop.)
My dad spoke to them in his limited urdu..and they became great friends of the family.
My lovely mum died of cancer 17years ago...and they attended the requiem mass,the chapel,and the funeral.
They were all set to "take communion"with us Catholics...until someone pointed out to them that it was not required of them.
Their respect was heartwarming...so I can never perceive Islam as "evil."...because I've witnessed and seen with my own eyes the humanity of it.
Just saying...

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by carrie » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:50 pm

A German man who used to live in my building died some time ago, his funeral service was held at the local Catholic church, attending that service were Christians, Copts and Muslims.After a requiem mass we all proceded from the church to the graveside prayers were said by the Copts and the Muslims, they then left and went to their mosque and church to pray again for him, we all met again later and ate ice cream in honour of him, since that was his favoutite food. It was a very moving experience.
I have spoken to other Muslims who have Coptic friends and they have attended wedding services in the churches, it is not Haram as far as they are concerned. During the anti Mubarak revolution, which has been stated on here before, the Copts formed a circle around the praying Muslims in Tahrir Square to protect them and when the Copts prayed the Muslims did the same.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Ok so Chuches are being attacked.

How many people have been killed in these attacks, or is just buildings?

I'm not taking sides but let us get it into perspective, people are far more important than buildings, even religious buildings..

This is getting onto ugly ground when Christian buildings are worth more than Muslim lives in some peoples' minds..

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:14 pm

TAL777 wrote: This is getting onto ugly ground when Christian buildings are worth more than Muslim lives in some peoples' minds..
I don't think anyone is saying or even hinting at buildings being worth more than lives.
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:17 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:
TAL777 wrote: This is getting onto ugly ground when Christian buildings are worth more than Muslim lives in some peoples' minds..
I don't think anyone is saying or even hinting at buildings being worth more than lives.
Well some do seem more outraged about the Churches than the hundreds of people that have been killed...

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:28 pm

Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:35 pm

Bombay wrote:Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.
Any idea of numbers killed?

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:39 pm

TAL777 wrote:
Bombay wrote:Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.
Any idea of numbers killed?
Is it really relevant? And can any numbers quoted really be relied upon?
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:39 pm

TAL777 wrote:
Bombay wrote:Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.
Any idea of numbers killed?
No I don't you can find it on Google and probably in the threads on L4U I am sure.
Most Christians are staying in their homes at the moment afraid to go out as are many other Muslims too that are not being killed but neither of these are reeking havoc across the country armed to the teeth either.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Bombay wrote:
TAL777 wrote:
Bombay wrote:Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.
Any idea of numbers killed?
No I don't you can find it on Google and probably in the threads on L4U I am sure.
Most Christians are staying in their homes at the moment afraid to go out as are many other Muslims too that are not being killed but neither of these are not reeking havoc across the country armed to the teeth either.
Ok so if it was a large number it would have been across the news, and useful anti-MB propaganda for the current regime. The fact that it isn't means that the numbers killed were not in the hundreds, unlike the massacre in Cairo...

Unless there were hundreds killed in these Church attacks, I'm still more outraged and depressed about the slaughter in Cairo than these churches..

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:57 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:
TAL777 wrote:
Bombay wrote:Of course Christians are being killed a simple search on Google would show you that.
Its Muslims that are attacking them their buildings also Government buildings and security personnel and the other Muslims that don't agree with them.

Its the other Muslims and Security services who do not agree with this and what's going on that are killing them and protecting the property and the churches.

Only yesterday an attempt to attack a church near Luxor was stopped by other Muslims in the town.
Any idea of numbers killed?
Is it really relevant? And can any numbers quoted really be relied upon?
No its not relevant, one person is one person and one person dying is never good.
The sad thing is that none of these people needed to die if common sense had prevailed and the leaders who are all tucked up safe took a different path.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 pm

I won't give you figures because I can see your cat and mouse game.

You just lost your moral high ground by saying if hundreds of Christians were dead what's happening in Cairo would be ok.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:10 pm

Bombay wrote:I won't give you figures because I can see your cat and mouse game.

You just lost your moral high ground by saying if hundreds of Christians were dead what's happening in Cairo would be ok.
Actually I would say that this was also an atrocity had more people (Christian, Muslim makes no difference to me) been killed.

The point is that this story is being made out to be as important as the Cairo Massacre, which it can not be due to the sheer numbers killed in Cairo in just two days..

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:20 pm

TAL777 wrote:
Bombay wrote:I won't give you figures because I can see your cat and mouse game.

You just lost your moral high ground by saying if hundreds of Christians were dead what's happening in Cairo would be ok.
Actually I would say that this was also an atrocity had more people (Christian, Muslim makes no difference to me) been killed.

The point is that this story is being made out to be as important as the Cairo Massacre, which it can not be due to the sheer numbers killed in Cairo in just two days..
By who, the western media seems to ignore the fact that this is going on and is all related to Cairo and the other "Terrorism" the country is currently being subjected too.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:26 pm

TAL777 wrote:Ok so Chuches are being attacked.

How many people have been killed in these attacks, or is just buildings?

I'm not taking sides but let us get it into perspective, people are far more important than buildings, even religious buildings..

This is getting onto ugly ground when Christian buildings are worth more than Muslim lives in some peoples' minds..

There have been numerous documented attacks on Christians, their property and their Churches since the revolution, and particularly during Morsi's reign. I don't know the statistics (although I intend to find out) but there must have been hundreds of deaths.

Of course human lives are more important than buildings. But there is a salient point you are missing here. You are not comparing like with like. How many Muslim's have died v. how many Christians have died? The fact is the Muslim factions sustaining casualties arising from their supposedly 'peaceful' protests, namely the MB and Salafists who are presenting themselves as 'victims' before the world are the same factions who have unleashed a virulent campaign of terror and murder against Egypt's vulnerable minority group, namely the Coptic Christians.

So, whilst wailing to the world that a they are being attacked and murdered by the Army, they have simultaneously launched on a spree of extreme violence and destruction against the Coptic community. Does this not strike you as somewhat hypocritical? And do you not think it makes a nonsense of their claims to be a movement who have 'renounced violence'?

And there is a very important distinction to be made here. The deaths of the protesters are not down to the Copts. They have no blood on their hands in this situation. They are not murdering Muslims. But the Islamists ARE murdering THEM! In so far as I can see Egypt's Copts are the truly 'innocent' victims in this situation. :(

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:32 pm

People should also remember those of us that ARE living in extraordinary times still have to be cautious what we say or write unlike those who are NOT living through extraordinary times and are in other countries.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Dusak » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:01 am

Its not about placing a building as worth more than a single life, which it isn't. Its about certain factions within the Muslim collective that wishes to see the Christian faith removed from this land permanently. The destruction is the beginning, remove their places of worship to thin out the herd so to speak. More Muslims are getting killed by their own choice of actions. Violence begets violence, so hundreds die. This is not a political struggle. Its a religious one.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:42 am

I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:55 am

HEPZIBAH wrote:I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.

What is more important violence or the threat of violence? Really some on here are just proving their bias..

The bully blaming the victim for being bullied is a favoured tool used especially by Israel in relation to the Occupied Territories, and now by some on here.....'It was your fault you were shot, not mine I just pulled the trigger.'..

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