Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:04 pm

TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.

What is more important violence or the threat of violence? Really some on here are just proving their bias..

The bully blaming the victim for being bullied is a favoured tool used especially by Israel in relation to the Occupied Territories, and now by some on here.....'It was your fault you were shot, not mine I just pulled the trigger.'..
Are they not the same? Look at what it takes to get on a plane these days.

Go to your local police station carrying a gun and see what happens to you.



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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:21 pm

Bombay wrote:
TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.

What is more important violence or the threat of violence? Really some on here are just proving their bias..

The bully blaming the victim for being bullied is a favoured tool used especially by Israel in relation to the Occupied Territories, and now by some on here.....'It was your fault you were shot, not mine I just pulled the trigger.'..
Are they not the same? Look at what it takes to get on a plane these days.

Go to your local police station carrying a gun and see what happens to you.
How can shooting someone, or just threatening to shoot someone be the same?

Are you saying that being dead or alive are the same?

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:28 pm

You obviously have no idea what's going on here. I cannot blame you I have seen and heard some of the foreign coverage.

Pop over and see ask the people yourself then get back to us.

Over and out.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:33 pm

TAL77 I hope you never have to live in/with real fear for your livelihood and more especially your life.
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:47 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:TAL77 I hope you never have to live in/with real fear for your livelihood and more especially your life.
And you are implying that it is worse than actually being killed...right

As I said people are twisting this argument to suit their political allegiances, which I am not.

I 'merely' value human life equally of whatever background, religion, political persuasion, race or position in society.....Clearly some on here don't..

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:52 pm

TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.

What is more important violence or the threat of violence? Really some on here are just proving their bias..

The bully blaming the victim for being bullied is a favoured tool used especially by Israel in relation to the Occupied Territories, and now by some on here.....'It was your fault you were shot, not mine I just pulled the trigger.'..

What? have you actually been anywhere near Egypt over the past couple of years? The MB and Salafists do not just threaten violence, they ARE violent, and that violence does not seem to know any bounds. Why do you think they are being called 'terrorists?'. Many Egyptians are very wary of them indeed. Particularly now that they have the support of Hamas and Al Queda operatives within the the country. And the Copts are downright terrified. And they have good reason to be. They had some protection under Mubarak. They had none under Morsi. Sisi has promised to rebuild their Churches, but can the Army and the transitional Govt. protect them against a force determined to obliterate them? Well that remains to be seen. They have appealed to Obama for help now and it'll be interesting to see how he responds to that.

And as for the bully blaming the victim? Well, I think you could level that charge at the MB as well. They 'bully' the Christians and Shia's mercilessly. And blame them for everything.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:53 pm

You're the one twisting everything not once on here has anyone said that someone should be killed and its ok.
If you turn up to a gunfight with a gun expect to get shot, do not turn up in the first place even better.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:05 pm

TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:TAL77 I hope you never have to live in/with real fear for your livelihood and more especially your life.
And you are implying that it is worse than actually being killed...right

As I said people are twisting this argument to suit their political allegiances, which I am not.

I 'merely' value human life equally of whatever background, religion, political persuasion, race or position in society.....Clearly some on here don't..
NO! I am no implying anything. I am clearly saying that I hope you never have to live in/with real fear. No implication in that but a very clear comment.

As for twisting things...it is you that is reading into people's posts what is not there. I can assure you I value human life and place no bias on that value.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:10 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:
TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:TAL77 I hope you never have to live in/with real fear for your livelihood and more especially your life.
And you are implying that it is worse than actually being killed...right

As I said people are twisting this argument to suit their political allegiances, which I am not.

I 'merely' value human life equally of whatever background, religion, political persuasion, race or position in society.....Clearly some on here don't..
NO! I am no implying anything. I am clearly saying that I hope you never have to live in/with real fear. No implication in that but a very clear comment.

As for twisting things...it is you that is reading into people's posts what is not there. I can assure you I value human life and place no bias on that value.
Why do you feel the need to speak on behalf of the others? Alot of your comments are 'us'...or 'we'. So much for individuality...

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by DJKeefy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:17 pm

I can't see 1 "us" or "we" in the last 2 posts you quoted from Hepzi. your definitely reading something that is not there :roll:
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:19 pm

timetraveller wrote:
TAL777 wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I agree very much with what Dusak has just posted.

It is not about the buildings as such but it is about the message that is being sent out in destroying them. Churches, possibly more so than many mosques, are usually vibrant community hubs where Christians meet not just on a Sunday for worship. They are also used much more by the whole family - men, women and children. Destroying churches is done to instill greater fear in to a minority community, to reduce the places where they can congregate in large numbers, and to destroy many of their religious and historical artifacts.

What is more important violence or the threat of violence? Really some on here are just proving their bias..

The bully blaming the victim for being bullied is a favoured tool used especially by Israel in relation to the Occupied Territories, and now by some on here.....'It was your fault you were shot, not mine I just pulled the trigger.'..

What? have you actually been anywhere near Egypt over the past couple of years? The MB and Salafists do not just threaten violence, they ARE violent, and that violence does not seem to know any bounds. Why do you think they are being called 'terrorists?'. Many Egyptians are very wary of them indeed. Particularly now that they have the support of Hamas and Al Queda operatives within the the country. And the Copts are downright terrified. And they have good reason to be. They had some protection under Mubarak. They had none under Morsi. Sisi has promised to rebuild their Churches, but can the Army and the transitional Govt. protect them against a force determined to obliterate them? Well that remains to be seen. They have appealed to Obama for help now and it'll be interesting to see how he responds to that.

And as for the bully blaming the victim? Well, I think you could level that charge at the MB as well. They 'bully' the Christians and Shia's mercilessly. And blame them for everything.
Actually I was visiting Egypt about three times a year, and not just to the tourist places but 'proper' Egypt such as around the Nile Delta, and the Canal Zone. Unlike some on here who just fly in and out of Luxor or the Red Sea resorts and stay in Western hotels...

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:20 pm

TAL777 wrote:
Why do you feel the need to speak on behalf of the others? Alot of your comments are 'us'...or 'we'. So much for individuality...
Clearly you have not had your reading glasses on but your blinkers when you have read my posts in this thread!
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:26 pm

Quote; 'As for twisting things...it is you that is reading into people's posts what is not there'

That was a recent comment of yours. If that isn't defending or speaking for others' then I don't know what is..

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by HEPZIBAH » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:37 pm

TAL777 wrote:Quote; 'As for twisting things...it is you that is reading into people's posts what is not there'

That was a recent comment of yours. If that isn't defending or speaking for others' then I don't know what is..
No, not speaking for others. Sharing a personal observation.
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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:38 pm

TAL 777,

When were you last there? After the revolution? Before Morsi was elected? During his disastrous year in power? During the anti-Morsi protests? After his removal? During the sit-ins? When?

And you stayed in the 'real' Egypt did you? Would you like to tell us what part of Egypt doesn't feel all too 'real' right now. Because I might just head off there.

The people you are discussing this issue with are not people who go to the Red Sea for a couple of weeks a year, and stay in Western Hotels. They are people who live in Egypt. And, in most cases, have done for several years. We have all had ample opportunity to work out for ourselves what is going on because it has been playing out around us. Are we on a level playing field here? Can you say the same?

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:42 pm

timetraveller wrote:When were you last there? After the revolution? Before Morsi was elected? During his disastrous year in power? During the anti-Morsi protests? After his removal? During the sit-ins? When?

And you stayed in the 'real' Egypt did you? Would you like to tell us what part of Egypt doesn't feel all too 'real' right now. Because I might just head off there.

The people you discussing this issue with are not people who go to the Red Sea for a couple of weeks a year, and stay in Western Hotels. They are people who live in Egypt. And have done for several years in most cases. We have all had ample opportunity to work out for ourselves what is going on because it has been playing out around us. Are we on a level playing field here? Can you say the same?
I don't have to answer you mate, because whatever I say you have already seem to have formed an opinion. And you are doing the same...speaking for others...

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Bombay » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:01 pm

I think its time to close this thread its going nowhere, or at least stop perpetuating its journey to nowhere.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by timetraveller » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:03 pm

TAL777

There's nothing wrong with having formed an opinion 'mate'. Just pointing out that, with regard to the issue at hand, some of us have had a lot more experience on which to base their opinions than you have. I am speaking primarily for myself. I am not advancing opinions on behalf of others, just pointing out that they are not occasional holidaymakers, they live here. But what's all that compared to you.....who visits (or used to visit) the 'real' Egypt, three times a year no less. :lol:

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by Dusak » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:20 pm

As is only to be expected on this wonderful site another brick wall has appeared so we all have to show patience while we stand in front of it, banging our heads against its exterior. TAL777 is obviously one of those folk that only has one opinion, their own. A person that likes to irritate people just for the sake of it. Doesn't matter if they are right or wrong as long as the barbs draw blood. We are well aware of the motivational driving force behind such posters. A space has been cleared in the far corner in anticipation for when the toys will be thrown out of the cot.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Churches torched across Egypt in anti-Coptic violence

Post by TAL777 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:49 pm

And you seem to be a group of quasi-colonialists, still thinking that Christianity is somehow superior than Islam. Churches being buildings are in your view more important than hundreds of people being killed because they happened to support a political party that you don't like...

I wonder what you are doing living in or visiting an Islamic country when you still show such an indifferent attitude to local people being killed on a massive scale? Yes chuches and Christians have been attacked, but not on the same scale nor intensity as on Wednesday in Cairo, but some of you still wish brush over it, play it down, or blame them for their own deaths....

If you think I'm a MB supporter then you are completely wrong, I don't believe a religious government is compatible with democracy, especially as we now know, it was a corrupt and dictatorial one. They opportunistically took power in the vacuum that followed Mubarak's removal because there was nobody else.

What I am against though is civilians being killed on a mass-scale and unlike many of you, I could not care less whether they are MB, Christian or anything, nor whether they were told to stay there by their corrupt leadership...They are dead now when a few days ago they were living, breathing human beings with families and loved ones who are now grieving, because they will never be coming back home. And as we now know there were hundreds of them...

Not one of you, apart from Jewel, has openly or voluntarily expressed any outrage or regret about these hundreds of people being slaughtered, but instead choose to blame them for staying there and place no responsibility on the people who shot them...I wonder if you would have such an attitude if it were Christians that have just been massacred on a mass-scale? No, I didn't think so, then you would be crying from the roof-tops..

Many of you don't even seem saddened or depressed about what is going on in such a wonderful and magical country, but are just concerned with your own safety with the exception of Who2, who seems about the only one of you loyal to their adopted home. That shows that how little allegiance you have towards Egypt, and that you are willing to flee back to Blighty when things get rough..

Well, in that case I am glad that I just mix with local Egyptians on my visits and not Ex-pats if those on this board are anything to go by...

I will await now the predictable mob-attack and mocking comments and patronising comments about me not knowing what is going on....

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