An Egyptian's view of Expats

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An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

I thought this was a very interesting piece.

Mohammed Nosseir

I used to think that immigration was about migrants moving from a developing country to a developed one, motivated by a single criterion—the better standard of living. This was until I learned that moving from a country to another is not only a matter of climbing up a ladder; for numerous reasons, people move to and settle happily in nations that offer “inferior” living standards. Immigration is a two-way channel that is founded on a variety of different needs and desires.

I have encountered many foreigners who have settled down in Egypt (not only in Cairo, but also in many Egyptian villages), become emotionally attached to the country, established strong networks of friends and, eventually, founded families. These foreigners tend to enjoy the charm that Egypt offers, despite the many challenges, such as pollution, congested traffic, noise and overall poor services offered by the government. Nevertheless, the fact that they continue to live in Egypt when they have the option of going home is proof that Egypt still possesses positive qualities.

Egyptians, at large, like and respect foreigners. Their behaviour may sometimes be misleading, but they tend, in essence, to be proud that a foreigner is interested in their country, and they often want to show off its positive aspects. However, the state, believing that Egyptians are naïve and could unknowingly reveal information that is helpful to our “enemies”, often prefers us to be more alert with foreigners. For security purposes, foreign residents are sometimes referred to as “strangers”, a subtle attempt to put a distance between them and Egyptians.

Some people argue that foreigners who have moved to Egypt are taking over Egyptian jobs. This is not true—Egyptians will not replace their fellow citizens with foreign workers unless the cost/benefit analysis favours the foreigner. Additionally, many foreigners have managed to establish their own businesses, creating numerous employment opportunities for Egyptians. Total net employment figures (inclusive of the foreign factor) certainly favour our economy, and foreign experiences and skills constitute an added value that Egypt definitely needs.

During my trips abroad, I instinctively try to learn more about my host country and its people. I observe people carefully, attempt to advance my knowledge about the country’s culture and socioeconomic attributes and, in my interaction with its inhabitants, I ask as many questions as possible. This is my learning curve that helps me to broaden my knowledge and acquire a better understanding of people’s mentality and behaviours. I am well aware, at the same time, that if I were to adopt the same behaviour in my own country, I could well be accused of espionage.

Living here for years, foreigners often develop a natural desire to see Egypt become a better place. Thus, they begin to express their opinions on issues that could be improved—which often leads foreigners into an unpleasant area. Egyptians generally, and their government in particular, always want to be complimented. Foreigners may make their remarks sincerely and with the best of intentions, but voicing any sort of criticism of the “Mother of the World” affects Egyptians’ ego and is not appreciated.

Foreigners living in Egypt try to integrate into our society, but the Egyptian state, unfortunately, always questions the reasons behind their prolonged residency. The Egyptian government welcomes tourists visiting the country for a few days or weeks, or foreign investors who transfer their money to Egypt and then go back to their countries. However, outside of these two categories, the government is unable to internally digest the prolonged residency of foreigners in Egypt.

Foreign governments do not need to send their people to other countries to collect information; today’s technologies allow advanced nations unlimited access to information, enabling them to know more about us than we do ourselves. Additionally, Egyptians reveal their entire lives on social media—which can be monitored easily. Nevertheless, for both citizens and foreigners residing in Egypt, predicting the future is quite a challenge.

The Egyptian state needs to acknowledge the phrase, “Friends of Egypt” and to capitalise on the many foreigners, living in Egypt or abroad, who have an interest in helping our country. While the state is not obliged to accept every view or idea they express, a constructive dialogue with our foreign friends is certainly beneficial to Egypt. If the state were smart enough to capitalise on their contributions, these “Friends of Egypt” could become our best ambassadors, helping to effectively fix things internally and to better convey a positive message about Egypt. Harassing the messenger, evidently, will not help Egypt to move forward.

Mohammed Nosseir is an Egyptian liberal politician working on reforming Egypt based on liberal values, proper application of democracy, and free market economy.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/04/2 ... -of-egypt/


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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

All very nice words, and I am sure some expats will feel all warm and fuzzy and say "See! Our Egypt is safe posts on FB are useful"

...Yet, another article just appeared that has a different twist on basically the same topic:
http://www.madamasr.com/opinion/giulio- ... l-security
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Scottishtourist »

I once stayed in Gaddis hotel.Met very nice man there who invited me to his home.
He was very wealthy,owned land near Movenpik,had a nice flat,air conditioned car,family farm..and apartment for himself near airport.
He took me to his village,paid for lunch,showed me and sis round his property and flat.

His opinion?The ladies in Gaddis are "rubbish."The ex-pats.As are the men there who have just been allowed in to "grope"the tourists!They've all got STI's you know!Cos,they're ****** about with anyone and everything!For money!

What's your opinion of ex-pats?Can you say same if you are not married and of different persuasion?
Or is Luxor/Egypt your dream come true?
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

Serious question ST: Why do you spend so much time on the topic of expats/tourists/Egyptians/Luxor when there seems to be nothing about any of it that makes you happy and you don't actually spend much time in Luxor at all to explain it all as just letting off steam about something that you can't escape?
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

Glyphdoctor wrote:All very nice words, and I am sure some expats will feel all warm and fuzzy and say "See! Our Egypt is safe posts on FB are useful"

...Yet, another article just appeared that has a different twist on basically the same topic:
http://www.madamasr.com/opinion/giulio- ... l-security
I read both articles as basically saying the same thing.....there is a problem with the 'security mentality' of the government and its agencies.

The marked difference in tone is possibly because the author of the first is probably working in Egypt whilst the latter, at a guess, is safely beyond its borders. :lol:

Your first paragraph makes no sense to me but spare me any clarification.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

Glyphdoctor wrote:All very nice words, and I am sure some expats will feel all warm and fuzzy and say "See! Our Egypt is safe posts on FB are useful"

...Yet, another article just appeared that has a different twist on basically the same topic:
http://www.madamasr.com/opinion/giulio- ... l-security
I read both articles as basically saying the same thing.....there is a problem with the 'security mentality' of the government and its agencies.

The marked difference in tone is possibly because the author of the first is probably working in Egypt whilst the latter, at a guess, is safely beyond its borders. :lol:

Your first paragraph makes no sense to me but spare me any clarification.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

I wasn't so much contrasting the author's opinions but rather the quotes and anecdotes in the second with the suggestions of the former.

I'd say the location of the authors matters less than the experiences of the people they base their pieces on. Some tourists that had a nice time for 2 weeks in Egypt is far far different from someone who has to get security clearance to do their work here. And since he hasn't taught at NYU since 2010, he is talking about experiences that date back to the Mubarak years so it is not a new attitude in the slightest, but something that goes back decades.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Who2 »

Glyphdoctor wrote:Serious question ST: Why do you spend so much time on the topic of expats/tourists/Egyptians/Luxor when there seems to be nothing about any of it that makes you happy and you don't actually spend much time in Luxor at all to explain it all as just letting off steam about something that you can't escape?

"Hell hath no fury than a women spurned by a felucca bum" or something along those lines...8)

I think the correct verse from The 'Mourning Bride (Act III Scene 2)
"Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd, Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn's."

Ps: 'He probably went to Specsavers!
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

Glyphdoctor wrote:I wasn't so much contrasting the author's opinions but rather the quotes and anecdotes in the second with the suggestions of the former.

I'd say the location of the authors matters less than the experiences of the people they base their pieces on. Some tourists that had a nice time for 2 weeks in Egypt is far far different from someone who has to get security clearance to do their work here. And since he hasn't taught at NYU since 2010, he is talking about experiences that date back to the Mubarak years so it is not a new attitude in the slightest, but something that goes back decades.
Are we reading the same article?

Mohammed Nossein's is all about the contrast in the attitude of the government to foreign residents (NOT 2 week tourists) compared to that of Egyptians generally....an attitude which verges on paranoia.

The other opinion post concerns a similar attitude to a native Egyptian researching in areas considered, rightly or wrongly sensitive.

Yes...the same mentality has probably existed for decades. After all, the form of government has been essentially the same since 1952.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

"These foreigners tend to enjoy the charm that Egypt offers."

"Nevertheless, the fact that they continue to live in Egypt when they have the option of going home is proof that Egypt still possesses positive qualities."

The above are quotes from the first article.

Maybe you don't realize it, but it's not so easy for an academic who has built their professional career around Egypt as a subject to just "go home" and leave it all behind. They aren't here for the "charm". There's also a big difference between whinging about piles of trash in the streets to some friends and publicly publishing and talking about Egypt at a higher level. The first is letting off steam and they could switch to doing it privately. The second does not have that option. The first article came across as very Pollyannish to me as if this is a very simple problem to be solved whereas the second was more realistic about the resistance one is up against.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

You're entitled to your opinion.

I'd have described Nossein's prose as circumspect rather than the pejorative term you use, and I've hinted at one possible explanation for this.

Where does he suggest that the 'security mentality ' is an easily solved problem?

You're comparing apples and pears - Nossein's view of the experiences of the majority of expats - foreigners, probably retired or at least not dependent on working in Egypt - and the experience of one native Egyptian academic who has left Egypt and can express his views in a way he would never dare to if he was here now.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Major Thom »

Apart from marriage GD and your love of Historic Egypt have you ever thought about returning to the riches and comfort of your own Country?
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by A-Four »

Major Thom wrote:Apart from marriage GD and your love of Historic Egypt have you ever thought about returning to the riches and comfort of your own Country?
Or perhaps, a somewhat rather extended holiday, escorted of course. :wi .
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Major Thom »

Yes A4 Escorted by my wife... Oh! I see what you are getting at, well its the wrong time of the year for that. :lol: :lol: That if I think I know what you mean, would mean a one way ticket not a return.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Major Thom »

Oh A4 you certainly know how to wind people up. :lol: :lol:
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

I'm not saying I disagree with what Noseir says about the foreigners in Egypt, as I think most of what he says about them are totally valid, but I see it as an article that is hopeful whereas the other one says forget about it. Maybe it's just because I have experienced the security paranoia firsthand as an academic and know people who have been affected by it and complaining about trash and speed bumps is nothing in comparison. Yeah people may find you annoying if you complain about mundane issues like that, but no one was thrown out of the country or stopped from living their life as they wanted to because they complained about trash or suggested the caleche drivers should be taught manners.

The one thing I disagree with him about though, and this is also to answer MT's question, is the first paragraph. Yes, Egypt may have an OVERALL lower standard of living than some other countries. but that doesn't mean the foreigners who choose to come here are all actually living at a lower standard than they would in their own countries. My husband and I made the decision to return to Egypt and settle here permanently because for us at least, it offered a better standard of living in the ways that mattered to us than the US. There are people here with drivers and maids and live-in Filipino nannies that would never be able to afford that lifestyle back home. Also, most foreigners who came here freely are near the top of the food chain and probably none of them were in that position before they came here. Yes, there are some people who may be living at a lower standard because of bad financial planning or poor business choices but as he says, they can go home. There are very few diehards who come here to slum it.

As for an escorted extended holiday, I would have to commit a crime of high treason and get my citizenship stripped first before that could happen. As is, I almost wasn't even allowed to leave last time I traveled because of sudden change in policy for dual citizens that was not advertised and my stamps were not in order and I only was able to board the flight because the officer at passport control gave me a humanitarian exception.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by A-Four »

Glyphdoctor wrote:
As for an escorted extended holiday, I would have to commit a crime of high treason and get my citizenship stripped first before that could happen. As is, I almost wasn't even allowed to leave last time I traveled because of sudden change in policy for dual citizens that was not advertised and my stamps were not in order and I only was able to board the flight because the officer at passport control gave me a humanitarian exception.

Here you go again, I only suggested an extended holiday, because the West coast of America is such a long way, and a short trip would be a waste of time. As for escorted, well you would not be wanting to leave the hubby behind, now would you.

P.S. - You are not the only one, who has exclusive use of games. :wi .
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

A4-I don't get you and really I don't care that I don't get you. It used to be that your wink wink nudge nudge comments were wrong, now they have reached a point where they don't even make any sense to me.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by newcastle »

The one thing I disagree with him about though, and this is also to answer MT's question, is the first paragraph. Yes, Egypt may have an OVERALL lower standard of living than some other countries. but that doesn't mean the foreigners who choose to come here are all actually living at a lower standard than they would in their own countries.
But he didn't say that !

[quote
I used to thinkthat immigration was about migrants moving from a developing country to a developed one, motivated by a single criterion—the better standard of living. This was until I learned that moving from a country to another is not only a matter of climbing up a ladder; for numerous reasons, people move to and settle happily in nations that offer “inferior” living standards][/quote]

I don't think you would argue that standards of services etc.etc. in Egypt generally fall below that of the home countries of many expats.....and this is what I understand him to mean by "inferior" living standards. He didn't say. or imply, that
....... the foreigners who choose to come here are all actually living at a lower standard than they would in their own country
Maybe we're just reading it differently...let's move on.
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Re: An Egyptian's view of Expats

Post by Glyphdoctor »

He's saying he used to THINK the REASON people migrate is to enjoy a higher standard of living. He is saying that Egypt has lower standards and other countries higher standards.

I'm not talking about reasons. I'm talking about whether moving to Egypt actually entails a lowering of the standard of living. I don't think it necessarily is the case. He is assuming everyone moves to Egypt is giving up a higher standard of living and what I am saying is a lot of people are actually enjoying a better standard here than in their home countries, as a material fact, not as a reason.
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