The People of the Mountain.

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Who2
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The People of the Mountain.

Post by Who2 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:52 pm

Now here is an excellent article shared by a pal Ahmed.... 8)
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... zOOtcpS.01


"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by newcastle » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:15 pm

Interesting article Who2....albeit about an old and continuing saga.

Sometimes there's no "right" answer to a problem.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Dusak » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:45 pm

Its seems to be OK to loot a country's antiuities and know its going on but say nothing, but not OK to loose your house for being part of it. They did, I believe, get offered new homes as a replacement.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by newcastle » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:25 pm

As with most disputes there's two sides to this issue.

The hillside dwellings were, through their sewage , causing untold damage to existing, and yet undiscovered tombs. Undoubtedly, some of the villagers were involved in tomb robbing.

The government actually was quite light handed and, for Egypt, reasonably generous in its treatment of the villagers.

Extract from The NY Times 23/3/2007 :

Egypt, trying to avoid unrest, offered houses in New Gurna to peasants living atop ancient tombs, but 80 families are holding out for a better deal. Credit Shawn Baldwin for The New York Times

Egyptian officials say that in Gurna they will finish the task because science and decency are on their side. They are preserving priceless antiquities and moving the villagers to a community with the running water that they lacked in Gurna. They complain that the holdouts are trying to extort the government. Under the plan, every married man receives a two-bedroom house in what is known as New Gurna. But the holdouts are pressing for one house for every son.

“Each family man is asking for a house for himself, and for one for his children,” said Sabry Abdel Aziz, head of the Egyptian Antiquities Sector. “We are not distributing millions here. It is a problem of greediness.”

The government considered having the villagers pay for the new houses with low-cost loans. But officials ultimately decided to give the houses away, part of a broad effort to keep the peace. “The president says you are not allowed to remove anyone without providing him with an alternative he agrees to,” said Muhammad Tayeb, head of the local council for the governorate of Luxor. “It is impossible. It is against our humanity to force people out.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/world ... luxor.html
“The president says you are not allowed to remove anyone without providing him with an alternative he agrees to,” said Muhammad Tayeb,
Mmmmm......I don't imagine Mubarak expected that to be taken literally - if he said it at all :lol:

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Dusak » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:33 pm

I know of countless families that were given only thirty minutes to vacate the houses that they had occupied for decades, with no alternative accommodation, or even compensation, here in Karnak. The largest en-masse demolition project was when someone that had letters at the end of his name thought that massive undocumented Roman ruins where to be found close to the Temple. One was an English guy that had only just signed and paid for a three story block. Two weeks later it was flattened.
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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Winged Isis » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:55 am

Friends living there complain of the poor standard of the buildings, making them unable to add extra storeys for family members.
Carpe diem! :le:

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by carrie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:31 am

They also had animials in Old Gurna impossible where they are now and Zam Zam where a lot were moved to is far out. Some of the houses have been saved from the demolition but are unoccupied nice to have a wander round those.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Dusak » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:18 am

Winged Isis wrote:Friends living there complain of the poor standard of the buildings, making them unable to add extra storeys for family members.
I was told many years ago that they were constructed purposely not to allow any extra floors to stop illegal building and alterations, and also to prevent the overall visual aesthetics of the finished project from being turned into an eyesore with badly finished work and forests of rebars poking up along the horizon. Sounds like a good move to me. :up
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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by newcastle » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:25 am

Dusak wrote:
Winged Isis wrote:Friends living there complain of the poor standard of the buildings, making them unable to add extra storeys for family members.
I was told many years ago that they were constructed purposely not to allow any extra floors to stop illegal building and alterations, and also to prevent the overall visual aesthetics of the finished project from being turned into an eyesore with badly finished work and forests of rebars poking up along the horizon. Sounds like a good move to me. :up
In theory anyway....

But then they ignore the regulations, build extra floors, nobody intervenes and - hey presto - another building collapses and people die.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Hafiz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:47 pm

Who2 thanks.

The property law system seems very confused - but one thing seems clear is that if the state wants what you have it can take it and pay nothing or whatever it thinks fair - whatever fair means. There seems no legal thinking, no lawyers and no community values which ensure that the state treats you fairly or that a court can review the level of proposed compensation.

I recently came across an Egyptian concept which is similar to adverse possession. The notion that if you occupy land for long enough you get a title. In some cases a few years ago courts endorsed it in particular cases. This didn't seem to matter because the Ministry and the police just defied the court and did the eviction. There seems no tradition/practice of officials following a court direction and no court prepared to imprison an official for contempt. There seems no tradition in the bureaucracy of fairness - merely a desire to implement the will of the state.

One of the few bright ideas of Morsi was to implement a fashionable international theory which says that the economy can expand if you regularize and simplify ownership - including land ownership. Give people certainty and they will start to make better decisions for the future. Alas nothing happened and 6-12 million Egyptians continue to live in irregular and non-legal arrangements awaiting the interest of property developers that will bring their house down. The land property rights of Egyptians is a mess only slightly better than the land registration and the land planning/building permits systems.

Newcastle - I don't share your view about the evictions but that is another post because its far from clear, as you suggest, what is the whole story. For example the main threat to lower level West Bank archaeological structures is the water table and associated rising salt levels. There are also agricultural chemicals in the water table but whether they add to the threats to the buildings I don't know. Tens of millions of aid money has been spent to 'fix' this - but I doubt much has actually been achieved. A few septic toilets seems neither here nor there compared to this (probably) unsolved (certainly) larger problem.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by newcastle » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:20 pm

Newcastle - I don't share your view about the evictions
I'm not sure I expressed a "view"....and was merely putting forward the government line.

Like the later demolitions at Karnak, and on the route of the Avenue of Sphinxes, you will find Egyptians saying they were turfed out at five minutes notice without compensation, and the government claiming they were compensated adequately, or rehoused, within a reasonable time frame.

Believe who you want. The truth may lie somewhere in between.

My natural inclination is to disbelieve the government's assurances. But then again, I'm well aware of the ability of Egyptians to 'lay it on with a trowel' when saying they've been hard done by. :lol:

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by A-Four » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:30 pm

Who2 wrote:Now here is an excellent article shared by a pal Ahmed.... 8)
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... zOOtcpS.01
Just a few word oF gratitude to the Dr for this wonderful reminder of the times past. It is now almost ten years since the people of the hills were uprooted. I know that you did have some interest in the preservation and reminder of the history of the hill people, that was then soon to disappear.

You may remember Daramali House.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by A-Four » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:07 pm

carrie wrote:. Some of the houses have been saved from the demolition but are unoccupied nice to have a wander round those.
The area that you mention here is on the hillside just above where the ticket and inspectors office are on the WB, The people who once lived in this area were of a totally different 'tribe' compared to the rest of the hill people of old Querna. They were moved to areas to the south. Some ended up in the so called Susan Mubarak modern village on the edge of the desert.

Unlike the other villages, these people were not allowed to take away any wooden fixtures. It was hoped that this area would become a sort of 'living museum' of the history and life of the hill people. You may have noticed two tombs in the same area, they are of the late period, with some interesting detail, they were closed to the public about 50 years ago, it was hoped that they would be re-opened. This was the plan ten years ago under the idea and policy of the then Culture Minister Mr Farouk Hosni,........but then came the so called revolution .

I notice that much of what has been written in the past few days on this subject post, including the article in the New York Times, is very similar to the crap written about these people throughout time. I only hope one day the true full story will be made available.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by newcastle » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 am

The 'picturesque' and oft painted/photographed houses on the hillside above the ticket office are what remains of the village of Qurnet Murai.

Image

Whatever one thinks of the clearance of the Qurna area and resettlement of its inhabitants, leaving this cluster of houses was a clever move and enhances scenically a view which would otherwise be barren and forlorn.

The two tombs mentioned by A-Four (as closed and 'late period') may be the New Kingdom ones actually open to the public ( since Nov 2015). Who knows.....his description and dating is often a little muddled.

Bernie Adams , in his blog, has some excellent pictures of the wall scenes in these tombs TT277 & TT278, and another, TT40, close by, opened at the same time.

https://egyptmyluxor.weebly.com/three-n ... murai.html

I have visited these tombs and they're well worth the trek up the hill. I recall Carrie has also been...and they have been mentioned before on this forum. A couple of likely lads took me around the houses where their family were still fashioning tourist artifacts...although whether they were actually living there, or just "camping", wasn't clear.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by Yildez » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:00 am

Yes, Carrie and I visited the tombs Newcastle described in January 2016 - very interesting and certainly worth a visit.

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Re: The People of the Mountain.

Post by carrie » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:44 am

That's where I saw the painting of the man wearing the white wig, well worth a visit.

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