Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

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Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

With the current furore over the "damage" to the famous mask doing the rounds, I thought members might like to view the attached lecture Nicholas Reeves gave at the MMA on the origins of the mask...and some conclusions he (but by no means all egyptolgists) draws regarding events at the end of the Amarna period.

A fascinating bit of forensic archaeology by Nicholas!



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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

I was a little surprised to see Reeves referring to Neferneferuaten (Nefertiti?) as the King's Great Wife referred to in the Zananzash correspondence.

I thought it was generally accepted that the reference is to Ankhesenamun.

I don't know whether Reeves still adheres to his theory - the lecture is from 2011.

Maybe Frater has some "insight" here?
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Frater0082 »

Well to be fair I was reborn in the later part of the amarna era, so I can only tell from that time and onward. But from my personal observation of the mask it could have belonged to his grandmother Queen Tiye, or stepmother Kiya. I don't think it even resembles the bust of Nefertiti because look how round the face is compared to that of Nefertiti not even a match.

Originally, thought that it belonged to my mother and that all of her treasures were taken from her after her disgrace but its unlikely

Then i compared the mask with that of the bust Queen Tiye and I see a very high resemblance in the two.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

Watch the program again Frater.

The whole point of the lecture is that the mask is composite - the face (of Tutankhamun) having replaced an earlier face....probably that of Nefertiti (Neferneferuaten) based on the surcharged, but still discernible, cartouches on the surrounding elements of the mask.

The conclusion of the analysis in Reeves' lecture is that Tutankhamun's grave goods were largely intended for Neferneferuaten.

Forgive me - I can't recall who your "mother" was. I wondered if you knew anything about the correspondence with the Hittite king and if Ankhesenamum was involved.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Frater0082 »

newcastle wrote:Watch the program again Frater.

The whole point of the lecture is that the mask is composite - the face (of Tutankhamun) having replaced an earlier face....probably that of Nefertiti (Neferneferuaten) based on the surcharged, but still discernible, cartouches on the surrounding elements of the mask.


The conclusion of the analysis in Reeves' lecture is that Tutankhamun's grave goods were largely intended for Neferneferuaten.

Forgive me - I can't recall who your "mother" was. I wondered if you knew anything about the correspondence with the Hittite king and if Ankhesenamum was involved.
My mother was Kiya.

Nefertiti was my father's Co-regent she along with Smenkhare ran the kingdom while papa was sick but ironically they all disappeared in the same year.

Nefertiti was the first to die. Remember what I told you before my mother killed her in self-defense. Believe me when I say that the Younger Lady mummy is Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti aka princess Nebetah.

Then came Smenkhare. I don't know what happened to Smenk but my sister Mery blamed it on the priest for his death.

I believe that there were many people using the term Neferneferuaten. First it was Nefertiti then it was Mery.

I know for a fact that Meritaten was disgraced for some unknown reasons which left Ankhesenpaaten alone perhaps with Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun.

I once held a theory that the Nibhururiya that the Letters talked about was Amenhotep III and that Smenkhare was sent as peace offering in some form to the Egyptians from the Hittites.

To be honest I don't know what happened my mother kept me out of that line of fire and I remained Oblivious to the entire incident. I was a minor royal it had nothing to do with me. Plus I was going on 12 years old I probably didn't think it mattered to me.

Dahamanzu could've been Meritaten trying to hold onto power which would make since seeming how every one who was legitimate enough to run the kingdom was dead. Perhaps Mery knew what she was up against and didn't want want every thing that she basically grew up believing to just go down in flames.

I believe that it was princess Meritaten who was second rule as NeferNeferuaten then Ankhesenpaaten senior afterwards. I now believe that Pharoah Ankhkeperure Neferneferuaten was Ankhesenpaaten (senior) acting as Co-regent regent on Tutankhamun's behalf then when he was old enough she got the boot too.

Leaving Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun all alone with no contact with thier banished family.

It does make since now that Tutankhamun would've taken her belongings after she was disgraced. but to me the mask resembles Tiye too.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Aromagician »

Many of the funeral goods portray a woman. Nefertiti. So one would presume that either they were taken from her tomb when tut died and used for him. The bodies of tiye and Nefertiti ( I believe are the ones found together) had very little funeral gear. But why would Tut take them? Would he have started transforming them before his death. Or was it hastily done afterwards.


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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

Aromagician wrote:Many of the funeral goods portray a woman. Nefertiti. So one would presume that either they were taken from her tomb when tut died and used for him. The bodies of tiye and Nefertiti ( I believe are the ones found together) had very little funeral gear. But why would Tut take them? Would he have started transforming them before his death. Or was it hastily done afterwards.


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Almost certainly taken after Tut's unexpected demise. He's unlikely to have countenanced the pilfering of his stepmother's (possibly even mother's?) grave goods.

The mummification period would left more than enough time to alter the requisitioned items.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Dusak »

I'm not very interested in Egyptology, but last night I watched episodes 1,2 of Joann Fletchers investigation into the life and times of Merit and Kha. I found her very easy watching, non of the usual pomposity show by these media Egyptologist's. Can't understand why she seems to be so unliked. One point that wasn't explained was because Merit died first and Kha's coffin was already completed they placed her in his. So why didn't they swop them around when his time came, placing them both in the correct ones?
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

Dusak wrote:I'm not very interested in Egyptology, but last night I watched episodes 1,2 of Joann Fletchers investigation into the life and times of Merit and Kha. I found her very easy watching, non of the usual pomposity show by these media Egyptologist's. Can't understand why she seems to be so unliked. One point that wasn't explained was because Merit died first and Kha's coffin was already completed they placed her in his. So why didn't they swop them around when his time came, placing them both in the correct ones?
Possibly as swapping around bodies might have been a bit "icky" ?

Re Joann....well apart from the hair :D ...and the accent :mrgreen: ...I think some people (particularly the English) are a bit uncomfortable with OTT displays of emotion especially on serious documentaries. She does get a bit :cry: :cry: :cry:

I don't have any great problem with her...though I'd rather watch John Romer :wi

And I'll give her a big cheer if the Younger Lady mummy does turn out to have been Nefertiti. Another one in the eye for Hawass :P

P.S. Despite your disinterest in egyptology you should give Deir el Medina (another?) look...the open tombs are real gems.

And the security staff up there could do with some company :)))

P.P.S Take dollars...just in case they've buggered about with this one too :lol:
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Frater0082 »

newcastle wrote:
Dusak wrote:I'm not very interested in Egyptology, but last night I watched episodes 1,2 of Joann Fletchers investigation into the life and times of Merit and Kha. I found her very easy watching, non of the usual pomposity show by these media Egyptologist's. Can't understand why she seems to be so unliked. One point that wasn't explained was because Merit died first and Kha's coffin was already completed they placed her in his. So why didn't they swop them around when his time came, placing them both in the correct ones?
Possibly as swapping around bodies might have been a bit "icky" ?

Re Joann....well apart from the hair :D ...and the accent :mrgreen: ...I think some people (particularly the English) are a bit uncomfortable with OTT displays of emotion especially on serious documentaries. She does get a bit :cry: :cry: :cry:

I don't have any great problem with her...though I'd rather watch John Romer :wi

And I'll give her a big cheer if the Younger Lady mummy does turn out to have been Nefertiti. Another one in the eye for Hawass :P

P.S. Despite your disinterest in egyptology you should give Deir el Medina (another?) look...the open tombs are real gems.

And the security staff up there could do with some company :)))

P.P.S Take dollars...just in case they've buggered about with this one too :lol:
The younger lady is Nefertiti its too bad that there is no other way to prove me and Joann's statements the world will never know that they already found the body of Queen Nefertiti and that she and her husband were actually siblings. Its a shame..well at least some people know who she is
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Dusak »

I have visited this site on several occasions, and yes, I was very impresed and enjoyed walking around the village remains, but was less impressed with the temple or whatever it was constructed of mud brick. The tombs looked to me as if the artists had just nipped out for a cuppa they were in such pristine condition. I got fed up of the geezer that used to suddenly appear out of thin air attempting to sell his collection of just dug up relics of the past. My last visit with visiting friends was spoiled as it was made quite clear that you were no longer entitled to walk around the village without permission, even though we had tickets for the main two tombs at the vantage point and another along the pathway that I forget the name of. Part of the hospitality when friends visited was to introduce them to these sites.

The show of emotion is to be human in my opinion, although I am not one to shed a tear myself cos its not a man thing. ;) I still remember those now long passed days when I used to waken in the morning with such a hair do, minus the colour red and blue.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by newcastle »

That bloke flogging bits & bobs - and his carvings - is still to be found haunting Deir el Medina :lol:

I've been so often he makes a bee line for me & my friends before the car has stopped. I've even got a couple of his offerings on my bookcase.

Well...he has to survive somehow....although I can't imagine how he does with the dearth of visitors nowadays.

That Ptolomaic temple has had its chapels "restored"...i.e. cleaned up...and the wall scenes are quite delightful & colorful.

I had a right barney with the guardian last time...having got all the way to the temple to find I'd left the tickets in my car. Even though he would be returning with us to the car park & tombs (which we had yet to visit), he made my friends stand in the heat outside the temple while ( despite my protestations that he's get them later) I had to return & fetch them.

Needless to say, no baksheesh for him at the end :vs
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Bombay »

Don't know what the fuss is about anything I have glued over here has fallen apart within days :)
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Frater0082 »

U know when I heard about the Tutankhamun beard fiasco I wasn't bothered as long as they dont desecrate his body and one else for that matter its all good. Hell even that.

You see those material things doesn't matter but the soul did. I never got a chance to really get to know Tut but i'm sure he didn't really cared for those things.

The boy just wanted to be free and at last I would think in spirit he is.
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Brian Yare »

Bombay wrote:Don't know what the fuss is about anything I have glued over here has fallen apart within days :)
Solder on regardless!
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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Aromagician »

In most places a team of experts would be called and methods replicated to ensure it was repaired authentically so as not to stray from the craftsmanship of old. Glue? That is hilarious


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Re: Tut's gold mask is actually Nefertiti's

Post by Bullet Magnet »

The Whole Tut mask is symbolic once again, the beard falling off is probably a good thing in my opinion.

I would love to get a real mask makers opinion as to how that thing was made.. Anyone know one ? ;)
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