Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with myself

[Horus]

No energy is free there always has to be an input, even your piezoelectric crystal has to be struck to make it work.

[newcastle]

No energy is free there always has to be an input, even your piezoelectric crystal has to be struck to make it work.

John is determined not only to overturn conventional egyptology but also the Laws of Thermodynamics

[Horus]

I am looking forward to some proper answers to my list of questions and not some esoteric waffle about vibrating grass, mind you going by a lot of his previous posts maybe grass does have something to do with it.

[newcastle]

My thoughts exactly

[Zooropa]

I do agree on the ray guns part.

It was Frater's mates the aliens that had the ray guns.....

[Zooropa]

I have always believed that Akenaton and co lived in a lush savannah, Armarna was a city unlike any of the others, and a society does not change that fast, then switch back again

Only if the original societal change occurred naturally over a period of time.


This change was forced on the people and the priesthood against their wishes very quickly.

That being the case it is logical to assume it was switched back just as quick when they were able to do so.

[Horus]

Exactly, just like modern day China is trying to move on from the austerities of Chairman Mau as soon as the opportunity arises.

[A-Four]

My goodness this side of the forum has been very busy today. I shall come back to all tonight, and see if I can help out.


P.S.- II shall first deal with a earlier subject in this section.

[John Landon]

P.S.- II shall first deal with a earlier subject in this section.

Good Idea, the topic is already running ahead of itself, Which is what I think may have happened in Amarna.

@Winged Isis: Thank you for that link, https://amarnaanniversary.wordpress.com/blog/

I'm going to read that now. It's late for me, so now is an ideal opportunity before I jump into the bath and head off for bed...

[A-Four]

John I haven't actually seen that head but took a load of photos one day and when I downloaded them onto my computer there the head was, must have been a trick of the light and the shadows on the cliff that I hadn't noticed. Wierd.
Wish I could post photo on here but I have tried and can't.

I have to agree with you Carrie, I have heard so much about this head that seems to appear on the cliff side at Hatchepsuit's Temple, but have never seen this effect myself, simply because either I have not been there at the right time and/or noticed it when I have.

[A-Four]

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I kicked the edges of one of the foot prints and it was as if carved in rock, absolutely firm.

The balloon arrived, I collected up the clam shells to show the passengers and pushed the event to the back of my mind.

On reflection I would say the size of the feet was that of a small man and he was travelling in a NNW direction away from the river and about half a mile or so from the foothills behind the Valley of the Queens.

It may sound strange but when it rains up in the western hills, the soft mud flows down the hills which becomes mixed with the wet lose shale, and believe it or it sets almost like concrete. That is why today we find large covered tombs on the valley floor,

With regards to sea shells of many types, I have often come across these in situ on the very top of the Thebian hills, likewise I have also found very ancient worked flints, from an age I would only dare to even think of.

[A-Four]

What about the Docks?

I realised very quickly after visiting Egypt for the first time that Egyptology is an obsessive occupation, so carefully steered round it a much as possible while being interested in odd things that pop up. Like the docks, which were so fundamental to The West Bank, but probably because I'm not a student of Egyptology and had more to do with present day society I never hear them discussed.

If there were docks then there must have been a considerable depth of water. I know that the Nile flooded up to Memnon untll the 1950s or so and that the water came up to the bottom of Television Street until then too - according to locals who live there. It was of no great depth, and seasonal of course, but many old timers remember it.

This is a truly interesting subject brought up by Mad Dilys, and quite strange that little research has been done. What I do know is that a canal was cut around the period of Ramessis III, and from some where near the south side of the present day Ramla, and following a route, obviously away from Gazirra (meaning island), and following a similar route that Victorian and Edwardian tourist took along the straight road that once was continuous all the way to Habou Temple. Evidence of this old road can still be seen today. Where you see the very old benzine station just outside Gazirra, there is a back road that run some way almost parallel to the modern day road.

When this now lost ancient canal reached Habou, it entered into a quite large lake, then another canal travelled at direct 90 degrees north all the way up to Seti Temple, passing all the other mortuary temples on route. Finally the camel made a further 90 degree turn to the east, which brought the canal back to the river across from Karnack Temple.

The canal that runs south to north along where there are many mainly mud brick houses on the WB, in fact near to where the Dr lives, is quite modern.

[A-Four]

Many temples were intended to flood to some degree during the inundation, my regular driver would tell me he used to play in the water around the The Colossi of Memnon statues when he was a child and before the high dam was built. Amenhotep III temple of which the Colossi are a part was a good example of this.

I do not honestly see this to be true, being that most temples in the whole of Upper Egypt mortuary or otherwise are placed on high ground and certainly above the flood plain. You may notice elsewhere today regarding the goddess Sekhmet, I wrote that this deity's name means 'she who opens the ways of the stormy rains'. I believe that A-III had built protection barriers along the Nile at vulnerable points near Luxor's WB. I suspect that 'stormy rain' producing a highly irregular Nile flood,.......the rest as they say is history.

[Horus]

Many people believe that Amenhoteps temple situated behind the Colossi of Memnon would have flooded during the inundation probably to represent the creation myth with it rising from the waters, I doubt that the ancients would have built on a flood plain without good reason. The Nile could rise by as much as 5 metres and flooded much of Egypt, so many temples with their ‘Reed’ columns would resemble primordial marshes even with just a few inches of water covering the floor area. Nothing can be proved or disproved in this matter, but it does make sense when put in context of ancient Egyptian beliefs. Also in your other post you mention the series of canals than ran along the West bank and connected all the old temple sites, so if water could fill these canals via the Nile, then it could overflow during the inundation and flood those same temples, I did not say all, I said many.

[A-Four]

As for Tuts mask being unique I would take issue with that, in 1940 a French archaeologist named Pierre Montet discovered the tomb of the Pharaoh Psusennes I who belonged to the 21 st Dynasty and ruled from the Delta region. His own coffin was of solid silver and he too had a gold death mask and you should not mistake gold as being any more valuable than silver in this context. Gold was seen as being the flesh of the gods, whereas silver was considered to be the bones of the gods, so had similar worth. Due to the troubled times in Europe it did not get the same amount of attention or recognition.

I can not really say how many times I have been in the Cairo Museum, but each and every time I find something new that I question. In most cases it is in relation with the 18th Dynasty, where I discover something knew that will not fit into the established 'jigsaw', and the one that seems to throw up the biggest problems is the mask and coffin faces of Tutankhamoun.

In past observations, when I look carefully at that mask of Tut, on one side only do you find the cartouche of this pharaoh, below this you an see the soft gold has been smudged as though to obliterate a previous cartouche.

What we now have to study is not so much a mask of gold as this, and really how easy it really is to make it,.........quite easy really, when you know how. The fly in the 'ointment' is not so much the quality and glitz of the gold, it' is the carefully individually hand cut Lapis lupus, imported from Afganistan, that should set alarm bells ringing. If not this then the solid gold coffee, certainly would. Add to this the fact that each of the faces on each of the coffins are very different. There are enough images of all these available to study yourselves, then you may even begin to really study and perhaps think that the actual inner most mask, actually looks rather feminine.

[A-Four]

Many people believe that Amenhoteps temple situated behind the Colossi of Memnon would have flooded during the inundation probably to represent the creation myth with it rising from the waters, .

You make a good point here, however, we have to remember that throughout all time in ancient Egypt the ordinary people were expected to work for the Pharaoh, during the one third on the year of inundation, the other two being preparation of the land and harvest. The inundation was also the time when the priests collected the taxes, and prepared the taxation rate for the following year.

[Horus]

I think by now everyone who has any interest in this subject will realise that the Sarcophagus, coffins, gold mask and even the nested wooden shrines present problems of whom they may have originally been intended for. The re carved guardian figures on the corners of the quartzite sarcophagus that overlays previous work, the adzing of the outer coffins foot area to make it fit inside and the modification to the nested shrines all point to an ad-hoc assembly of items for this Pharaohs burial. Like you I have spent many days in the Cairo museum looking at that mask and it is obvious that the face part has been replaced as can be seen by the riveting at the back, the use of Lapis Lazuli for the eyebrows of the mask, but blue glass used elsewhere? Some say that the pierced ears are also a give-away, but that is somewhat debatable, but again why were they originally plugged with wax if not to disguise the fact? This was either a hasty burial at short notice with all sorts of stuff being commandeered for the event, or a final attempt by the priests of Amun to get rid of all the remaining artefacts that once had any connection to his father and his wife Nefertiti.

[A-Four]

Also in your other post you mention the series of canals than ran along the West bank and connected all the old temple sites, so if water could fill these canals via the Nile, then it could overflow during the inundation and flood those same temples, I did not say all, I said many.

If you carefully study the layout of all the mortuary temples, you will see that the water level of the canal that ran from Habou northwards passing all the mortuary temples, including Hatshepsut, Tutankhamoun and Tuthmoses III were all along this route, but even in flood the rise in water would be little more than two or three foot at most above the canal level, even so, still well below the gates of any of the temples.

I will try and write more on other people's comments tomorrow evening. .

[Mad Dilys]

If the flood waters were only about 3 feet deep then why were the Docks built so high? Well obviously the derricks and cranes would have to be higher than the side of the boat, but with a heavy load on - stonework for example - would 3 feet of water be enough to float the boat?

No one is interested in them it seems, but for me they are pretty awesome. Simple, effective and ignored once a bit of digging didn't turn up any gold. I think there's plenty to be found around their bases. I love to sit on top of one and watch the sun go down and use my imagination.

[A-Four]

If the flood waters were only about 3 feet deep then why were the Docks built so high? Well obviously the derricks and cranes would have to be higher than the side of the boat, but with a heavy load on - stonework for example - would 3 feet of water be enough to float the boat? )

I am sorry MD, I did not explain this clear enough, I meant that at the height of the annual flood I would not expect the water to reach more than 3 feet above the canal level that passed by temples such as Ramessis II Mortuary Temple, and the ancient water marks on the plinths of the Collossi of Memnon. I expect there would have been guide points to ensure boats kept within the canal areas at such times.

I believe you to be correct, these canals were much larger than the modern ones we see today, you only have to observe the old harbour at Habou to realise that.