Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with myself

Luxor is ancient Thebes and has a fascinating past. Share your knowledge or ask your questions here.

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Zooropa
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Zooropa »

A-Four wrote:
Zooropa wrote: Once again - Leicester top of the pile!
........and seriously Zoo, did you really expect anything less. :wi :wi .
Nope!


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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

That reminds me of a tomb in Liverpool, there are a few local legends associated with it, but here are the facts.

William Mackenzie was a civil engineer, Born in 1794 and died in October 1851
He was contracted to build railways in the 3 home countries, as well as France.

you will find this granite pyramid tomb at St Andrew's Church in Rodney Street Liverpool.

It was erected by his brother some 16 years after he died, no doubt because he left his brother all of his 300,000 wealth.
back in 1851 when William Mackenzie was buried, that must have been an absolute fortune !

people will tell you William is interred inside the Pyramid, but apparently that is not true, as the Pyramid did not appear until 16 years after his interment in 1868.
he is infact buried beneath it.

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Local legend tells the story of how McKenzie was supposedly entombed seated at a table with a winning hand of cards in his bony fingers.
The yarn insists that as an inveterate gambler, he bet and lost his soul in a game of poker with the Devil and figured that if he was never buried,
Satan could never claim his prize.

But as I stated above, the facts dispels this legend... :ct
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by A-Four »

Funny you should mention Rodney Street, John, I once lived for a while on that very famous road, In fact it was No 62, Gladstone House, named after the dear old chap. I occupied the basement flat, which I understand was the wine cellar, in them there old day.

The church you mentioned I think was gutted by a fire in the 1980's if I remember rightly, and was on the north end of the road towards Lime Street, and on the opposite side of the road to my then home,...........small world.

I always liked that quarry type cemetery of the Anglican Cathedral, which was where Lennon and Mc Cartney wrote many of their famous songs,....so I'm told.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

I think I may take a taxi down there when I finish an early shift and spend an hour or 2 down that area of the City.
Then Nip across to Hope street and take in the 2 Cathedrals, its something I have always meant to do.
The church does appear to be derelict, although it seems to have been earmarked as Student Accommodation. I
I'll jump over the wall and get some pictures, and see how long I can get away with before someone tells me to leave... 8)


Here's an up to date image off Google Maps. If you then click on the map, and turn around and head off down the road, you will find your old house,
and also a traffic warden nicking a VW Golf for parking on the pavement.. :cg

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40283 ... 56!6m1!1e1
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by carrie »

I used to visit Liverpool quite often and love that area. In fact I love Liverpool.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Horus »

I go there occasionally to visit my alloy wheels. :lol:
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

It does have a good vibe to it. I like it, and they miss me when I am not there... ;-)


Karl Jung said that "Liverpool was the pool of life"..

He was also convinced that Liverpool held the key to a profound secret.

You will find a bust of Karl Jung embedded into the wall of a pub named "Flannagans Apple" on Matthew Street, on the corner of temple Court.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Fla ... 72!6m1!1e1

I love the way Google Earth smudges the face on Karls bust... :lol:
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by A-Four »

And so to conclude my little story here, where for any one who has missed the first part is on page three of this subject,................

Lutyens had also studied, like so many intellectuals of his era, the old Eygptian faith. He was certainly a frequent visitor to the British Museum and the British Library, he knew two of the great section curators of that time who worked there. It is my belief that he would have learnt from them that the obelisk is seen as life's journey to reach, - 'the cap stone', 'the pyramid', though in truth it was known as the Ben Ben stone. It is written that in ancient Egypt, from the primeval waters rose up the first land, it was the Ben Ben.

If you study carefully the cartoon picture version of the royal obelisks, you will see that the Pharaoh seeks the divine wisdom of each of the senior gods, until he reach the full height where you finally see on the cap stone 'the pyramid stone' the pharaoh becomes one with Ra.(the king of the gods), and therefore IS God.. In the case of mear mortals, they had the book of the dead, the book of gates, or the book of what is in the afterlife, to help them enter paradise. For those who study this, would find little difference than that of the old Roman Catholic faith. Then of course came the so called Ka and Ba priests of old Egypt, though again, you would certainly identity similar indulgences, shall we say, again in early Christianity.

All the pharaoh needed was that he became one with the (Pyramid) Ben Ben stone, and that simply is what the tomb is all about, though one important fact remains, and that is that the spirit ( or Ka, as it was known) must be protected, destroy this and the Pharaoh in paradise is also destroyed. I find it remarkable today, people still leave flower on a grave, and even have a one way conversation at the same place,.........even I am guilty of that.

The ordinary person on death in ancient Egypt had seven spirits, some of these were short 'lived' others 'lived' on. Today with the tomb of the unknown soldier in Westminster Abbéy he IS supposedly to be one with God, while his spirit is in the Cenotaph in Whitehall, where once a year they come to worship the spirit of that warrior. Believe it or not, that is exactly what the two temples attributed to Mentuhotep and Tuthmoses III are all about.

As the wealth of the New Kingdom developed the Pharaohs required earthly mortuary temples on a grand scale for the protection of their earthly spirit, which needed not only feeding but clothing and housing, and as we see in such places as Abydos,......even 'heavenly gardens'.

Sometimes, one has to think of the present day 'Vicar of Christ', in Rome. :wi .
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

A Good place to end this topic for now.

I shall re-poen it later on, and maybe try to resolve an ancient mystery which I feel Hepshetsut, VoK and Amarna has been hiding.
A somewhat convoluted story, which when pieced together in the correct manner should lead us to an Interesting conclusion, Nay, 2 interesting conclusions. :br
All I need to find out, is WHY, and that I feel is going to be the hardest part.

Frater's input may well assist, but if I manage to blow even Frater's mind, then that will be something.

Dont worry boys: Copious amounts of Valium and hot cocoa will be available upon request. :cg
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by carrie »

I doubt very much if anyone goes to the Cenotaph to worship the spirit of the dead but to remember the sacrifices made by those who gave their lives and not just in the World Wars with a simple message "We will remember."
As for the Pope well he is not God on Earth or a God he is a representative a leader nothing like the Pharaohs, he will not become a God in the afterlife.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

Throughout history though, The Papacy has often claimed that the Pope is divine. Some Popes have even had the audacity to make such claims.

The Story of "The Man who would be king" comes to mind.

Only the people of Europe are still being fooled today, unlike the people of Kafiristan, who wised up pretty quickly, and the punishment was swift and brutal.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Horus »

Not too sure what a story by Rudyard Kipling about Freemasons has to do with the Pope?
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by John Landon »

Its a similar setup, one man assumes control of a tribe. in Dravots case, by accident.
Dravots mistake was taking a wife, and she exposed him for what he really was, a mortal man.

In the case of the Holy Catholic church, the control was initially enforced through the Holy Roman Empire.
Once the initial enforcement was out of the way, later generations just assume it has always been that way.

Freemasonry is of course prevalent in religious architecture, infact the church got a bit miffed when they finally realised that the masons were keeping the old knowledge alive in the symbolism of the churches they built.
Freemasons were originally the Knights Templars, who were outlawed by said Catholic church.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Horus »

You do tend to make some wildly unsubstantiated claims JL, what proof do you have that Freemasons have anything to do with the Knights Templar other than in the minds of some Freemasons who like to encourage the mythical connection. The original Freemasons were quite simply a guild that represented the trade of the stone masons, it was a way of dealing with authority and their clients. It was no different than any modern trade body that ensured the quality, skill standards and trade secrets of those that worked in this important trade, we have similar guilds even today. The modern day Masons do have a theme that revolves around the building of Solomon’s Temple and various degrees of attainment, hence such sayings as giving someone “the third degree” or that someone was a “past master” when referring to someone’s ability, other than that they have nothing to do with the Templars. Also if you read the history of the Templars you will see that their persecution was more to do with a certain king wanting to welsh on his financial debts to them for the Templars were the forerunners of modern banking if you want to make a modern day analogy.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Yildez »

Horus wrote:You do tend to make some wildly unsubstantiated claims JL, what proof do you have that Freemasons have anything to do with the Knights Templar other than in the minds of some Freemasons who like to encourage the mythical connection. The original Freemasons were quite simply a guild that represented the trade of the stone masons, it was a way of dealing with authority and their clients. It was no different than any modern trade body that ensured the quality, skill standards and trade secrets of those that worked in this important trade, we have similar guilds even today. The modern day Masons do have a theme that revolves around the building of Solomon’s Temple and various degrees of attainment, hence such sayings as giving someone “the third degree” or that someone was a “past master” when referring to someone’s ability, other than that they have nothing to do with the Templars. Also if you read the history of the Templars you will see that their persecution was more to do with a certain king wanting to welsh on his financial debts to them for the Templars were the forerunners of modern banking if you want to make a modern day analogy.

The voice of reason, and evidence! Thank you Horus.
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Re: Hepshetsut-Amarna connection ? a conversation with mysel

Post by Horus »

Your welcome Yildez and I have to say that I like many others on here have no problem with a well reasoned theory with some supporting evidence. There are many things that I would quite enjoy having a bit of mystery attached to, I enjoy a good mystery or an alternative theory, what I do not like is when against all current received wisdom and scholarly opinion someone tries to tell you something completely different without a shred of evidence. More annoyingly is that when you challenge it in any way you are made out to be uniformed, or that you do not know some mysterious truth that only the initiated know about and that to me insults the intelligence of our members as they are just expected to accept it without question. That is where it usually deteriorates into the realms of fantasy, it is fine putting forward an alternative theory and discussing it as I would have liked to have done regarding the obelisks, but I draw the line at fanciful theories that have no real basis. I myself have a particular photograph of a cartouche on the Red Chapel at Karnak that has the carving cut through a very hard pebble with great precision and without dislodging it from the stone it was embedded into, now I would happily discuss that sort of thing, but not if it involved laser cutters or other impossible methods to produce it, when the simple answer could be just days or weeks of laboriously boring work in order to achieve it, that in itself is more mind boggling to me than some fantastic theory about alien or lost technology.

The other old chestnut is to say “we could not produce it ourselves even with today’s technology” of course we could, there is no example of any artefact from antiquity that cannot be replicated today. We may not be certain as to how it was produced back then, but that is not some lost technology, it is just something that we have forgotten how to do in our modern age. A classic example was that when they wanted to restore some old highly intricate railway coaches they could not find anyone who could do the elaborate marquetry inlay work. This was not because the technology was lost as it was a common enough trade within early railway workshops, it was because it was no longer used and there was no one still trained in the craft any more as it was an obsolete trade and they had to bring old men out of retirement to complete the work. That example is typical of all ‘lost’ skills, it is not that we cannot replicate it, but rather we would do it differently today.
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