ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

Post Reply
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 ... pyrus.html

A Harvard University professor on Tuesday unveiled a fourth-century fragment of papyrus she said is the only existing ancient text quoting Jesus explicitly referring to having a wife.

Karen King, an expert in the history of Christianity, said the text contains a dialogue in which Jesus refers to "my wife," whom he identifies as Mary. King says the fragment of Coptic script is a copy of a gospel, probably written in Greek in the second century.

King helped translate and unveiled the tiny fragment at a conference of Coptic experts in Rome. She said it doesn't prove Jesus was married but speaks to issues of family and marriage that faced Christians.

Four words in the 3.8-by-7.6-centimetre fragment provide the first evidence that some early Christians believed Jesus had been married, King said. Those words, written in a language of ancient Egyptian Christians, translate to "Jesus said to them, my wife," King said in a statement.

King said that in the dialogue the disciples discuss whether Mary is worthy and Jesus says "she can be my disciple."

Christian tradition has long held that Jesus was unmarried even though there was no reliable historical evidence to support that, King said. The new gospel, she said, "tells us that the whole question only came up as part of vociferous debates about sexuality and marriage."

"From the very beginning, Christians disagreed about whether it was better not to marry," she said, "but it was over a century after Jesus's death before they began appealing to Jesus's marital status to support their positions."

Vatican media silent
King presented the document at a six-day conference being held at Rome's La Sapienza University and at the Augustinianum institute of the Pontifical Lateran University. While the Vatican newspaper and Vatican Radio frequently cover such academic conferences, there was no mention of King's discovery in any Vatican media on Tuesday. That said, her paper was one of nearly 60 delivered Tuesday at the vast conference, which drew 300 academics from around the globe.

The fragment belongs to an anonymous private collector who contacted King to help translate and analyze it. Nothing is known about the circumstances of its discovery, but it had to have come from Egypt, where the dry climate allows ancient writings to survive and because it was written in a script used in ancient times there, King said.

The unclear origins of the document should encourage people to be cautious, said Bible scholar Ben Witherington III, a professor and author who teaches at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. He said the document follows the pattern of Gnostic texts of the second, third and fourth centuries, using "the language of intimacy to talk about spiritual relationships."

"What we hear from the Gnostic is this practice called the sister-wife texts, where they carried around a female believer with them who cooks for them and cleans for them and does the usual domestic chores, but they have no sexual relationship whatsoever" during the strong monastic periods of the third and fourth centuries, Witherington said. "In other words, this is no confirmation of the Da Vinci Code or even of the idea that the Gnostics thought Jesus was married in the normal sense of the word."

More study urged
These kinds of doubts, King said, should not stop scholars from continuing to examine the document.

Those who conducted initial examination of the fragment include Roger Bagnall, a papyrologist who's the director of the New York-based Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, and AnneMarie Luijendijk, a scholar of the New Testament and early Christianity from Princeton University. They said their study of the papyrus, the handwriting and how the ink was chemically absorbed shows it is highly probable it's an ancient text, King said.

Another scholar, Ariel Shisha-Halevy, professor of linguistics at Hebrew University and a leading expert on Coptic language, reviewed the text's language and concluded it offered no evidence of forgery.

King and Luijendijk said they believe the fragment is part of a newly discovered gospel they named "Gospel of Jesus's Wife" for reference purposes. King said she dated the time it was written to the second half of the second century because it shows close connections to other newly discovered gospels written at that time, especially the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Philip.


Now the tantalising proposition that ar ... re they???


Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: aNCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

During my study of Ancient Rome and its empire, I would often came across cross-purpoces with the written text of the New Testament, esp the four gospel, and the many that did not make the 'grain'. It is obvious to me that JC was married, and it is evident from other gospels that he had at least one son, who's name was Barabuss, (bar Abuss).

When we look at the New Testament as history, and not as an article of faith, the written word MUST fit in with the rules of known geography, history and laws of its time, that during the time of the life of JC, we certainly know a great deal, even more so than at a time like the Middle Ages in Europe.
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

Gone are the days, when people would just accept a truth as written. I can understand that as a spiritual document the bible no doubt has many writings that serve to teach spiritual lessons.
It is a shame that by omitting Jesus wife and details of their relationships, we thereby cannot know what insights they may have taught us.
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Aromagician wrote:It is a shame that by omitting Jesus wife and details of their relationships, we thereby cannot know what insights they may have taught us.
I do so agree with you here Aromagician, but if this was so, then in the Christian sense, we would have to accept that he had a son, and if this be the case, where are the decendents, the 'blood Line',...........sort of thing, and you and I know that opens up one hell of a can of worms.
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

Actually I did have a bit of a look after that to see who was claiming to be Jesus descendants, and there is a woman, who has written a book claiming to be his descendant.
Will have to find it.
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Talking of books, in my younger day I came across two, which at the time, although lacked the historical knowledge, were very interesting. After years of study about the Roman Empire, I returned to them to realise that if the writters at that time had the knowledged that I gained through my study, these two books would have made the Da Vinci Code, read like a Janet and John book.

I do not really understand the power of the internet, as to whether they are still available, Revolution in Judaea by Hyam Maceeby is one, the other is called The 15th Scroll, sorry do not know name of author. Even today I remain quite amazed as to how many present day authors on this subject, still give credit to both these, what were then nieve pieces of work on the study of history of early Christianity..
Stevepj
Member
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 96 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Stevepj »

Revolution in Judaea is still available on Amazon but no sign of the fifteenth scroll. I presume the scroll in question is of the Dead Sea variety :?
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Stevepj wrote: I presume the scroll in question is of the Dead Sea variety :?
Thanks for checking out the books Stevepj, and yes you are correct this book refers to those scrolls.

The information this author gave seemed fiction at the time, who said he had detailed info on this lost/stolen fifteenth, he wrote details in his book, that in truth we have only had knowledge about in the past ten or so years. The author of this work died in Australia, five years ater he wrote this book, in the late 1960's............so the secret of this scroll probably died with him.
User avatar
Teddyboy
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:50 pm
Location: Luxor or Windy Nook UK
Has thanked: 1092 times
Been thanked: 217 times
Gender:
Contact:
Egypt

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Teddyboy »

Maybe he was 'done away with' by the Catholics, in order to preserve the story as we know it?
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

That may sound quite daft to many people way back in the 60's, but anyone who has followed the history of the scrolls since their discovery, would not at all be suprised of anything now.
Stevepj
Member
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 96 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Stevepj »

The Gospel of Judas Iscariot is a rather interesting document.
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Stevepj wrote:The Gospel of Judas Iscariot is a rather interesting document.
I can see you have done some good research here Stevepj, many may think that Iscariot was the family name, it certainly was not. Iscariot means knife or dagger man, assassin in other words very much feared by the off-duty Roman soldier throughout old Judeau. The 'kitten' as they were known were hated by most Jews, in Judeau.

Judas's responsibility within the group was treasurer, in other words he was the most trusted of them all. It is very difficult to believe that this man would have done what we see in the Gospels.
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

As a footnote to what I have written above, perhaps you already knew this, but for those who did not, when reading the Gospel (attributed) to Judas, we have a good solid FACTUAL background.

A modern day example,.......if we were to read that a man bought a house in 2005 for £251,000 in the U.K. without paying a government tax, and study this info in the year 2100, we would say this person is not telling the truth. However if we then suddenly discover that the government of the day gave a 'house tax holiday' for that one year (2005), then we would go wow, the person who wrote this knew what he was talking about.

The ealiest Gospel was written no earlier that 70 AD, some Gospels have such info in great quantity, while others are easy, with inner knowledge, to know they are total fake.
Stevepj
Member
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:48 pm
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 96 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Stevepj »

Although the existing document dates back to the 4th century the bishop of Lyon Irenaeus mentions a Gospel of Judas in his "Against Heresies" c180AD. This would mean there was a Judas gospel in circulation by about 150. However whether this is the same Gospel of Judas as we now have is unknown. :ni:
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Stevepj wrote:Although the existing document dates back to the 4th century the bishop of Lyon Irenaeus mentions a Gospel of Judas in his "Against Heresies" c180AD. This would mean there was a Judas gospel in circulation by about 150. However whether this is the same Gospel of Judas as we now have is unknown. :ni:
Irenaeus has a lot to answer for.
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

It is interesting the information that is coming out now. People are no longer as naive as they once were regarding such things. Some of it is a little strange.
One I read on the Gnostics website about adam and eve was a little weird, talking about the creators plural.
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
A-Four
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 905 times
Been thanked: 1113 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by A-Four »

Please be careful on the study of the Gnostic Gospel, much has been totally dis-credited since the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Scolls.

The study of the New Testament is a minefield.

The study of the Old Testament, is a history often of 'battle' and 'wars', and with that in mind, who tell the story.

In modern history, during the World War II, it was Britain who first bombed civilian town and villages in Germany. This deeply distressed Hitler we are told, however truths, can be 'lost'. Even now some one would say,..........Yer so what, what about the Jews he murdered.
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

This is based on the scrolls found at Nag hammadi.

Here is some of it and an explanation

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Hobgood-Oster.html
Eve as Revealer of Gnosis

After the day of rest Sophia sent her daughter Zoe, being called Eve, as an instructor in order that she might make Adam, who had no soul, arise so that those whom he should engender might become containers of light. (115:31-35)[7]

In a quest to understand its own soteriology, early Christianity turned to the figure of Eve, demonizing her with unprecedented force. Christ's role in redemption became explicable only in its relationship to the Fall as portrayed in Genesis. Eve, along with her sinister partner the serpent, became the antagonist who, through her wiles, led the paradisical Adam away from God. As this understanding of Eve's inferiority and propensity for sin remains embedded in late twentieth-century culture, a few examples of it as a doctrine during the time period addressed should suffice to provide contrast with the Eve of Gnosticism.

Of course, one must begin with the appearance of Eve as recounted in the second creation account, which tends to be the more prominently retold of the two, possibly because of its intrinsic male/female hierarchical structure.[8]

and further on it says
the Eve we meet in Gnostic Christian texts. Here, her descriptions are those of a guide, instructor, and even a savior figure. Her essence and actions serve to provide gnosis and illumination for humanity. She is an "other" Eve. To grasp this overwhelming difference, one must first hear at least a portion of the Gnostic myth as told in OW. The orthodox "Genesis creation myth" and the role of Eve take on an entirely different form when related by the Gnostic community who heard and retold their understanding of creation in OW.

OKay here is the rest of it-

"And when they had finished Adam, he abandoned him as an inanimate vessel lest the true man enter his modelled form and become its lord. For this reason he left his modelled form forty days without a soul on the fortieth day Sophia Zoe sent her breath into Adam, who had no soul. He began to move upon the ground. And he could not stand up. (115:3-15)

The seven rulers or authorities - to put it too simply, these rulers - are rather low-level supernatural figures connected to the physical creation, made the body of Adam. However, they determined that Adam, if given a soul, could be more powerful than they; therefore he was created as an inanimate being. Sophia Zoe, a figure seemingly superior to the seven rulers in Gnostic cosmology, gave Adam life through her breath. This ontologically transforming endowment shocked and angered the rulers.

But the giving of life did not empower or liberate Adam fully: he was still relegated to crawling on the ground.[13] His weakness appeased the seven rulers who then took him and placed him in Paradise, then retreated to their heavens. At this point in the story, Eve enters:

When Eve saw her male counterpart prostrate she had pity upon him, and she said, "Adam! Become alive! Arise upon the earth!"
The ouroboros, among the Gnostics a symbol of the aeon, this image from Horapollo, Selecta Hieroglyphica, 1597



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

55
Immediately her word became accomplished fact. For Adam, having arisen, suddenly opened his eyes. When he saw her he said, "You shall be called 'Mother of the Living'. For it is you who have given me life." (116:1-7)[14]
Obviously, roles reverse in the Gnostic version of the creation story, though they will address the lack of knowledge of this reversal related through the other telling in Genesis. Rather than Eve's life being created from Adam's rib, Adam's soul is endowed by Eve – she becomes the active giver of life, rather than the passive receiver from Adam.

Eve's role continues to develop in OW :

Then the authorities were informed that their modelled form was alive and had arisen, and they were greatly troubled. They sent seven archangels to see what had happened. They came to Adam. When they saw Eve talking to him they said to one another, "What sort of thing is this luminous woman? For she resembles that likeness which appeared to us in the light. Now come, let us lay hold of her and cast our seed into her, so that when she becomes soiled she may not be able to ascend into her light. Rather, those whom she bears will be under our charge. But let us not tell Adam, for he is not one of us. Rather let us bring a deep sleep over him. And let us instruct him in his sleep to the effect that she came from his rib, in order that his wife may obey, and he may lord over her." Then Eve, being a force, laughed at their decision. She put mist into their eyes and secretly left her likeness with Adam. She entered the tree of acquaintance and remained there. And they pursued her, and she revealed to them that she had gone into the tree and become a tree. Then, entering a great state of fear, the blind creatures fled. (116:8-34)

In their plan to destroy Eve, the authorities create a lie – that Eve



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

56
came from Adam's rib. This fabrication of modeling from Adam's rib becomes the crux around which the orthodox interpretation of Eve, an interpretation which lacks requisite knowledge for salvation, revolves. One need only peruse the dogmatic systems of particular twentieth century Christian groups to be reminded of the power of the image in justifying the subordination of women.
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
User avatar
Aromagician
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:24 am
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Gender:
Contact:
New Zealand

Re: ANCIENT TEXT: JESUS REFERS TO MY WIFE

Post by Aromagician »

So what do you think of a woman breathing life into Adam? Sophia?
Typical a woman does the work and the men take all the credit.
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination. ROY M GOODMAN
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post