Do you have a faith ?

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:48 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:I don't need to justify my position to anyone so I certainly don't need an argument for it. However, I can still make a statement - that does not constitute an argument.
Argument, statement, whatever.



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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:48 pm

HEPZIBAH wrote:I don't need to justify my position to anyone so I certainly don't need an argument for it. However, I can still make a statement - that does not constitute an argument.
Having had time to reflect on this, I contend you are arguing.

I can't prove it of course.

Guess its just a matter of faith on my part.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Subversion » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:44 am

Depends on what we define as "faith".

I understand "faith" as a complex notion where positive affirmations in belief and trust combine.

Do we see "faith" as a belief in God/s - or do we understand faith a doctrine for life , not essentially connected to a particular deity?

Do we understand "faith" as the dumping ground for all the bits of life we can't logically explain or don't want to confront?

To me - the most important "faith" is faith in yourself, based on a groundstone of "first do no harm" and a following belief and trust that you will get up each day and try and live your life according to that principle.

I do fail most days!

God = the engine room where the faith of all living things combine and that energy becomes the giver of life.

Sx

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Robbo70 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:33 pm

If the question really means 'do you believe in god' then no I don't. I don't need a god or a religion to understand right from wrong. Humanity... that's what kids should be taught rather than one view depending on the teacher/country/belief etc. I don't need a holy book to understand what is good and bad in the world.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:19 pm

Yes.Roman Catholic.
I was taught "Catechism"in Roman Catholic Primary and Secondary school.Not so much the Bible.
It has guided me,it has shaped my life,it has given me something to believe in.
Do I agree with all it's teachings?
Sometimes NO!
But that's the beauty of "free will."
Asking questions and taking an interest in other religions can never be wrong.Can it?
It's all too easy to talk about humanity,good and bad,right and wrong.
But..these notes and guidance must come from somewhere!
Even if you don't believe in anything now..someone in your past must've done,and those teachings have come down to you.
These notions just don't appear outa thin air.
Somewhere,somehow,there's been a "faith"that has been passed on..whether you like/agree with it or not!

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Bullet Magnet » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Never forget your Free Will. A Very sensible answer S.T.
I would say that if one religion is on offer, then definitely look at the others as well.
After all your religion was primarily determined by your geographical location.
Meaning that had you been born in an Arab country you would have been born a Muslim.

Faith to me is not a religious faith, it's just the faith in that which is, and the knowing that I will always be alright.
There's a time for everyone, if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:06 pm

Big difference between faith and blind faith where one follows like a herd of sheep.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:17 pm

LovelyLadyLux wrote:Big difference between faith and blind faith where one follows like a herd of sheep.
We can accept it or reject it LLL.
I choose to accept it.I choose to believe in a heaven,a hell,good and bad,right and wrong.
As I've said,free will is wonderful.
My kids have mainly rejected it.They don't practice their religion any more.
But..it's still deep rooted in them.One granddaughter has been baptised,made her first communion.
They'll return to it some day.I know this.
Once a Catholic..always a Catholic.Especially for the final sacrament..Last Rites.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:38 pm

@ST - quite agree. The ability to think and challenge and question is wonderful. I have a hard time with some who blindly accept literal interpretations just coz and coz somebody says so.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:41 pm

LovelyLadyLux wrote:Big difference between faith and blind faith where one follows like a herd of sheep.
Sorry, I completely disagree.

There is no difference whatsoever!

Anything based on faith is "blind" as far as facts are concerned.

Where religion is concerned you are all sheep!

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:20 pm

That's the whole concept of "faith"Mr Z!
We "believe"without needing proof!
Is it "blind?"I suppose it is.
Have you never read the tale of "Doubting Thomas?"
Am I a sheep?No..I'm a ewe!
I'll follow it..cos quite frankly,no-one has come up with any argument to suggest otherwise.The presence of a "Supreme Being."
How can anyone be so interested in ancient Egyptology,their Gods,their Pharoahs,the death rituals,the "Book of the Dead"yet refuse to believe that similar beliefs exist in our modern world?
Why are you going visiting tombs and temples in Luxor?They're graves...reminders of some kind of faith and belief in an afterlife.
So,what's the difference between that and a religion in this living world?
The ancient corpses and mummies had a "faith."A belief.And you're fascinated by this?
So why not give the same interest and respect to other faiths and beliefs?

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:01 pm

Scottishtourist wrote:That's the whole concept of "faith"Mr Z!
We "believe"without needing proof! Yes i know - and its ridiculous!
Is it "blind?"I suppose it is. we agree
Have you never read the tale of "Doubting Thomas?" im sure i was force fed it at some stage
Am I a sheep?No..I'm a ewe! same thing
I'll follow it..cos quite frankly,no-one has come up with any argument to suggest otherwise.The presence of a "Supreme Being." lol, that statement is the height of foolishness, to be quite frank why would you believe anything so unlikely just because its not been disproven? i believe im going to marry Katy Perry this year, can you prove otherwise?!
How can anyone be so interested in ancient Egyptology,their Gods,their Pharoahs,the death rituals,the "Book of the Dead"yet refuse to believe that similar beliefs exist in our modern world? i don't doubt that similar beliefs exist now, you and many others are evidence of that - doesn't make them true!
Why are you going visiting tombs and temples in Luxor?They're graves...reminders of some kind of faith and belief in an afterlife. because its interesting, im also interested in the mystery of Jack The Ripper, do i have to be a fan of serial killing in order to justify my interest in it?
So,what's the difference between that and a religion in this living world?no difference at all, both highly improbable and irrational. They knew no better then, that was their excuse and its a good one, whats your excuse?
The ancient corpses and mummies had a "faith."A belief.And you're fascinated by this? yes
So why not give the same interest and respect to other faiths and beliefs?
because its silly and if you believed almost anything else with the same lack of evidence you would think it was as well, im consistant, its you that has to explain your inconsistency if you want respect for it, and after 2000 plus years you've still all your work ahead of you.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:23 pm

So Mr Z,you find ancient Egyptology so interesting..but still believe that "modern"religion has no place in the world?
You like "interesting?"You like "mysticism?"You like symbols,rituals,graves,notions of afterlives?
Go check out the 7 sacraments of the Catholic church.
It's full of them!Our living rituals,our death rituals,our symbols,our belief and preparations for an afterlife .
They really ain't that different from the ancient Egyptians..in fact,in some ways they're far more appealing,human and spiritual.
For one..the body ain't desecrated!It's honoured and revered.
No innards are removed.It's more or less complete when it ascends.
I always get horrible feeling when I visit these tombs in Luxor.Was the real intention that they would be "tourist"attractions in later years?Or was it that they would lie in a restful and peaceful place for the dead and be undisturbed by the likes of you and all the other voyeurs?

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:41 pm

Scottishtourist wrote:So Mr Z,you find ancient Egyptology so interesting..but still believe that "modern"religion has no place in the world?
You like "interesting?"You like "mysticism?"You like symbols,rituals,graves,notions of afterlives?

Yes I do, please see my answer in the previous post about why I like this and why I don't have to like or show interest in any of its modern equivelents.

Go check out the 7 sacraments of the Catholic church.
It's full of them!Our living rituals,our death rituals,our symbols,our belief and preparations for an afterlife .
They really ain't that different from the ancient Egyptians..in fact,in some ways they're far more appealing,human and spiritual.

One would hope they are, after all you've had the best part of 2000 years since the end of the Egyptian rituals and customs to improve upon it, if I were you id keep quiet about it because the amount of "progress" you have made is woeful!

For one..the body ain't desecrated!It's honoured and revered.
No innards are removed.It's more or less complete when it ascends.

When it ascends? it rots in the ground if buried or is burnt to a crisp if cremated. When this happens you are dead so what the Egyptians did then and what you do now matters not. Why? because your dead. My dear ST, know this, to those of us who have escaped or managed to avoid the poison of religion what you are saying is ridiculous.

I always get horrible feeling when I visit these tombs in Luxor.Was the real intention that they would be "tourist"attractions in later years?Or was it that they would lie in a restful and peaceful place for the dead and be undisturbed by the likes of you and all the other voyeurs?
Im guessing its the latter

It truly takes the arrogance of religion for a member of the Catholic church to start moralising about how the ancient Egyptians did things as if your lot hold the moral ground.

You do not, as I eluded to in my previous post, they had the excuse of ignorance, they truly believed all that stuff where as there are many, many closet catholic priests who pretend to believe but do not, even that evil woman Theresa admitted to not really believing in the end.

Why on earth would I be interested in a church that allows and probably orders its missionaries in Africa to tell ignorant people that if they use a condom they are offending god and will catch aids?

Why would I show interest in a religion that hates gay people but protects its own child molesters?

I believe you to be a good person and im quite sure there are many Catholics that are also good but it just shows how dangerous religion is when you and all the other good people remain a member when they do these wicked things.

Its a shame your not an Atheist ST because we believe when you die that's it, if I were you and this God of yours was truly a good and righteous person id be rehearsing my story right now for the day of judgement as to why I stood by and let my church do these wicked things and many more things besides, if I was God id be asking why you didn't tear up your membership card and walk away.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Scottishtourist » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:48 pm

Mr Z.I'll face my God!
I'll explain my failings..and he will be merciful.I'm sure of that!
I'll be buried"planted",my physical body may rot..but my soul and spiritual body will ascend!
That's it,I'm afraid..no argument,no justification,no reasoning!
Hopefully,I've earned ticket to heaven by my doings on earth!
There's nothing else left for me to argue with!I BELIEVE!
My mum and brother will come for me.I have no doubts about this.
They're waiting!
It's got nothing to do with priests,the Pope,or anything else!
They've just taught and guided..but at the finale..it's a very personal matter!
That's all folks!

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by carrie » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:54 pm

Well from all this I take it that the wedding wont be held in church.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:43 am

Scottishtourist wrote:Mr Z.I'll face my God!No you wont he doesn't exist!
I'll explain my failings..and he will be merciful.I'm sure of that!fingers crossed that he wont mind that you belong to a club that hates gays and causes Africans to die of aids
I'll be buried"planted",my physical body may rot..but my soul and spiritual body will ascend!lol
That's it,I'm afraid..no argument,no justification,no reasoning!of course that's correct, how can you reason and make sense of the ridiculous? Im marrying Katy Perry!!!
Hopefully,I've earned ticket to heaven by my doings on earth!what by condoning homophobia and child molestation? mm ok, good luck with that!
There's nothing else left for me to argue with!I BELIEVE!I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky!
My mum and brother will come for me.I have no doubts about this.must be pretty full this heaven, Dusak will be ok with all the building work required
They're waiting!il have a pint of whats shes drinking!
It's got nothing to do with priests,the Pope,or anything else!of course not, otherwise you would have some explaining to do wouldn't you?
They've just taught and guided..but at the finale..it's a very personal matter!they are just paedo's and homophobes and liars!
That's all folks!
meanwhile back on planet earth!

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:54 am

Zooropa : I have to admire your willingness to engage with the fervent believers in God (and all the attendant trappings). Your ripostes have me in stitches :lol:

Personally......I can't be ar*ed. :cg

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:12 am

This sort of sums up, for me, an expression of faith which is unique to the individual

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Robbo70 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:48 am

Scottishtourist wrote:Yes.Roman Catholic.
Asking questions and taking an interest in other religions can never be wrong.Can it?
It's all too easy to talk about humanity,good and bad,right and wrong.
But..these notes and guidance must come from somewhere!
Even if you don't believe in anything now..someone in your past must've done,and those teachings have come down to you.
Yes my mother is a practicing Christian and she taught me right from wrong. I do wonder though, do we need a book to tell us stealing is wrong, murdering is wrong and having it away with the neighbours wife is wrong, or should we kind of know that anyway. Had there been no religion to teach this, would the world be one big looting riot or would the good people of the world still figured out right from wrong?

I have taken a great interest in many of the other religions, and was lucky to go to a school where RE lessons involved regular visits from the local Rabbi, the local Imam, Catholic, Methodist, C of E vicars etc. Having listened to them all, I was happy with my choice of none of the above. I would never criticise anyone for their beliefs though. Each to their own.
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