Do you have a faith ?

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle »

Robbo70 wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:Yes.Roman Catholic.
Asking questions and taking an interest in other religions can never be wrong.Can it?
It's all too easy to talk about humanity,good and bad,right and wrong.
But..these notes and guidance must come from somewhere!
Even if you don't believe in anything now..someone in your past must've done,and those teachings have come down to you.
Yes my mother is a practicing Christian and she taught me right from wrong. I do wonder though, do we need a book to tell us stealing is wrong, murdering is wrong and having it away with the neighbours wife is wrong, or should we kind of know that anyway. Had there been no religion to teach this, would the world be one big looting riot or would the good people of the world still figured out right from wrong?

I have taken a great interest in many of the other religions, and was lucky to go to a school where RE lessons involved regular visits from the local Rabbi, the local Imam, Catholic, Methodist, C of E vicars etc. Having listened to them all, I was happy with my choice of none of the above. I would never criticise anyone for their beliefs though. Each to their own.
God help us (figure of speech) if we had to rely on the teachings of religion (in particular the 'holy books') for our moral or ethical behaviour. As we know only too well, people will interpret religious writings and sermons to further their own ends....quite unpleasantly so in some cases.

There are sound evolutionary reasons which govern our behaviour...including so-called morals & ethics



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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Robbo70 »

I couldn't agree more Newcastle. ST believes my humanity stems from the religious teachings from my mother ( or who ever taught me, as she didn't know it was my mother at the time of asking). I ask, without wanting to offend believers, if it were not for religious teachings would we still have humanity. I think yes.

I do wonder how many wars would still be raging if religion didn't exist. I understand many are disguised heavily for business interests but at least we could be honest about bombing the **** out of Iraq for the oil rather than because IS is running rampage under the banner of religion
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

There are plenty of cultures untouched by religion that have very moral societies that run on basic principles similar to our own.

This is proof that we did not and certainly do not need religion as any kind of moral guider.

The golden rule has been in existence long before major religions.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

Scottishtourist wrote:Yes.Roman Catholic.
I was taught "Catechism"in Roman Catholic Primary and Secondary school.Not so much the Bible.
It has guided me,it has shaped my life,it has given me something to believe in.
Do I agree with all it's teachings?
Sometimes NO!
But that's the beauty of "free will."
Asking questions and taking an interest in other religions can never be wrong.Can it?
It's all too easy to talk about humanity,good and bad,right and wrong.
But..these notes and guidance must come from somewhere!
Even if you don't believe in anything now..someone in your past must've done,and those teachings have come down to you.
These notions just don't appear outa thin air.
Somewhere,somehow,there's been a "faith"that has been passed on..whether you like/agree with it or not!

Look at the ten commandments, a good number of them have nothing to do with kindness or morality or how to live your life.

They are about not joining any other clubs and not making the club secretary jealous by looking at another club!

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by HEPZIBAH »

Zooropa wrote:There are plenty of cultures untouched by religion that have very moral societies that run on basic principles similar to our own.

.
Would you name some please for the purpose of example.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

There are plenty of cultures untouched by religion that have very moral societies that run on basic principles similar to our own.

This is proof that we did not and certainly do not need religion as any kind of moral guider.

The golden rule has been in existence long before major religions.
Hepzibah beat me to this BUT what she is asking is extremely important.

Please name a few of these cultures which are untouched by religion

Which moral societies might these be please pray do tell Zorropa? I'm waiting with baited breath to hear which cultures these might be..........

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle »

If loose lips can sink ships then loose words can give ammunition to those who would dispute your argument - the argument being, in this thread, that we need "religion" to give us a moral or ethical compass.

If we define religion as a belief system incorporating, spirits,gods or whatever, then all cultures have it in some form or other. I think Zooropa was using religion in a very narrow sense - the deistic, even monotheistic systems that are prevalent today. There are many cultures which don't have 'gods' at all.....but have a belief system which you can call religion if you wish.

Having got that red herring out of the way, our moral compass seems to operate across all cultures & belief systems which is itself indicative that its roots lie much deeper in our evolutionary process.

It's almost a "chicken & egg" question....what came first - morality or religion. And an equally pointless question since both have existed from the time of the first H. Sapiens Sapiens.

Hypothetically....if we could dispense with religion would society relapse into immorality? Well...there are plenty of atheists around who would be affronted by such a suggestion. I believe 85% of Swedes claim to be agnostic or atheist.

Does religious belief confer some sort of morality? Mmmmm....look around the world today (and in the past) and you have the answer to that.

Do we need religion to be moral?....absolutely not. Is religion with us for ever?....possibly...it seems to fulfil a human "need" in many. But not all (as I can personally testify :wi )

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle »

You don't have to climb very far down our evolutionary tree to find species that seem to operate perfectly well without religious belief or 'faith'.

Granted - it's hard to interview a troop of baboons on the subject and thus it's a matter hard to verify :lol:

Animal societies are driven by imperatives such as the quest for food, territory....and a mate to breed with.

Humans have managed to subjugate some of these imperatives in favour of others. Is this unique to our species? Is this because of religion? Apparently not.....certainly in the case of the 'higher' species.

And in any case who's to say that "being nice" to your fellow man is beneficial to the survival of our species? A thought I leave you with.....

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Dusak »

The peoples of the far Amazonian regions don't do God. And why is that, simple, the traveling bible pushers never got the chance to utter the words, ''hello, I an here to teach you about God'' before they received a mini me head and created a very nutritious stew.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

LovelyLadyLux wrote:
There are plenty of cultures untouched by religion that have very moral societies that run on basic principles similar to our own.

This is proof that we did not and certainly do not need religion as any kind of moral guider.

The golden rule has been in existence long before major religions.
Hepzibah beat me to this BUT what she is asking is extremely important.

Please name a few of these cultures which are untouched by religion

Which moral societies might these be please pray do tell Zorropa? I'm waiting with baited breath to hear which cultures these might be..........

The Piraha people of Brazil have no religion, whilst they do believe in spirits, these take the form of visible things in their environment such as objects and people.

The Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god, and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made.



My Heros!

There are similar groups of people in the same region and on other continents such as Africa.

Im pleased that this debate has now moved to a more sensible footing where evidence is now required to support beliefs and claims.

I too, LLL think that this is "extremely important".

So I too, am now waiting with "bated breath", if you could now provide your evidence for the existence of a supreme being please.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle »

The cargo cults of the Pacific are a wonderful example of man's gullibility in the area of religion.

Causes, beliefs, and practices[edit]
Cargo cults are marked by a number of common characteristics, including a "myth-dream" that is a synthesis of indigenous and foreign elements; the expectation of help from the ancestors; charismatic leaders; and lastly, belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by HEPZIBAH »

I thought the original question was about faith.

I'm not an expert, anything but, however I understand there are many tribes/formerlly 'undiscovered' peoples who perhaps do not have religion as it is perceived in the west but who most certainly do have a faith system - be that in ancient wisdoms (sometimes described as witchcraft, voodoo, shamanism etc).

I have also read in the past (but sadly cannot give named examples because I do not recall them) of people groups who have been discovered and whilst their belief system system has appeared outwardly very different to those understood by the western mind, they have actually professed to believe in one god - creator of the heavens and earth.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

HEPZIBAH wrote:I thought the original question was about faith.

I'm not an expert, anything but, however I understand there are many tribes/formerlly 'undiscovered' peoples who perhaps do not have religion as it is perceived in the west but who most certainly do have a faith system - be that in ancient wisdoms (sometimes described as witchcraft, voodoo, shamanism etc).

I have also read in the past (but sadly cannot give named examples because I do not recall them) of people groups who have been discovered and whilst their belief system system has appeared outwardly very different to those understood by the western mind, they have actually professed to believe in one god - creator of the heavens and earth.
That's fine, no need to give examples although you asked me to provide some, as is always the case in these debates, the rules change to suit.

Il take your word for it - call it an act of faith ;)

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by HEPZIBAH »

Zooropa wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I thought the original question was about faith.

I'm not an expert, anything but, however I understand there are many tribes/formerlly 'undiscovered' peoples who perhaps do not have religion as it is perceived in the west but who most certainly do have a faith system - be that in ancient wisdoms (sometimes described as witchcraft, voodoo, shamanism etc).

I have also read in the past (but sadly cannot give named examples because I do not recall them) of people groups who have been discovered and whilst their belief system system has appeared outwardly very different to those understood by the western mind, they have actually professed to believe in one god - creator of the heavens and earth.
That's fine, no need to give examples although you asked me to provide some, as is always the case in these debates, the rules change to suit.

Il take your word for it - call it an act of faith ;)
I am not giving any names because I genuinely cannot remember any of them. That does not mean they do not exist.

I asked you for names out of genuine interest and so that I could have actually looked them up. I have a strong faith, but it is not a blind faith and I am open minded enough to be prepared to read more and learn more.
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

Faith by definition is blind.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by newcastle »

HEPZIBAH wrote:
I asked you for names out of genuine interest and so that I could have actually looked them up. I have a strong faith, but it is not a blind faith and I am open minded enough to be prepared to read more and learn more.

Then I would thoroughly recommend "The God Delusion" by evolutionary biologist Prof. Richard Dawkins (Black Swan).

It deals thoroughly with the roots of religion, morality etc, and faith....and Dawkins is an entertaining author to read.

Quite possibly you've read it already. I must have read it ten times.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by HEPZIBAH »

Zooropa wrote:Faith by definition is blind.
I would suggest that having a closed mind is blind.
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it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by HEPZIBAH »

newcastle wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:
I asked you for names out of genuine interest and so that I could have actually looked them up. I have a strong faith, but it is not a blind faith and I am open minded enough to be prepared to read more and learn more.

Then I would thoroughly recommend "The God Delusion" by evolutionary biologist Prof. Richard Dawkins (Black Swan).

It deals thoroughly with the roots of religion, morality etc, and faith....and Dawkins is an entertaining author to read.

Quite possibly you've read it already. I must have read it ten times.
Thank you newcastle. I've not read this book although the title and author are not unknown to me. It's sort of been on my 'roundtoit' list for a long while.
Image Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

HEPZIBAH wrote:
Zooropa wrote:Faith by definition is blind.
I would suggest that having a closed mind is blind.
You suggest what you like, and its healthy of course if you do have an open mind.

But any kind of faith requires no evidence and so as far as facts are concerned it is blind.

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Re: Do you have a faith ?

Post by Zooropa »

HEPZIBAH wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
HEPZIBAH wrote:I thought the original question was about faith.

I'm not an expert, anything but, however I understand there are many tribes/formerlly 'undiscovered' peoples who perhaps do not have religion as it is perceived in the west but who most certainly do have a faith system - be that in ancient wisdoms (sometimes described as witchcraft, voodoo, shamanism etc).

I have also read in the past (but sadly cannot give named examples because I do not recall them) of people groups who have been discovered and whilst their belief system system has appeared outwardly very different to those understood by the western mind, they have actually professed to believe in one god - creator of the heavens and earth.
That's fine, no need to give examples although you asked me to provide some, as is always the case in these debates, the rules change to suit.

Il take your word for it - call it an act of faith ;)
I am not giving any names because I genuinely cannot remember any of them. That does not mean they do not exist. Didn't suggest they didn't!

I asked you for names out of genuine interest and so that I could have actually looked them up. I have a strong faith, but it is not a blind faith and I am open minded enough to be prepared to read more and learn more.
That's fine, I hope you find it of interest, however you said "for the purpose of the example" and not "out of interest" so im entitled to think it was required for the purpose of justifying the claim.

I suspect one of the reasons why Newcastle cant be "arsed" in debating is because you do not and indeed can not offer any evidence for your claims and yet when an argument is offered against your faith the first thing you demand is "evidence".

And when I say "you" im referring to people of faith and not necessarily you as an individual.

And that's what I meant by the rules changing.
Last edited by Zooropa on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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