Banning the Niqab

Luxor has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:34 pm

newcastle wrote:
Horus wrote:Again quoting Mad Merkel
“Our law takes precedence over codes of honor, tribal or family rules, and over sharia law.”
And the rights and wrongs of public surveillance is not the issue here, the issue is that we all comply if that is what the law states.
I'm all for the superiority of the law.

As far as I known, only France, Belgium and Austria have blanket bans on the niqab.

It seems the rest of the world ( including Mad Merkel's Germany) have a more nuanced approach to the issue.
By the rest of the world I assume you mean those countries that would stone a homosexual to death, chop off a limb for stealing, mutilate the genitalia of females as a common practice and believes that the contents of a book or their own customs should take precedence over a countries own national laws? Or is it the rest of the Western world that is rapidly being becoming tired of seeing their own national identities being subverted by the demands of others to have special treatment that in themselves would be unlikely to be countenanced in their country of origin? Can a Christian openly preach and recruit converts in Arab countries, can a Christian visit Mecca or Medina?

9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

So as the greater number of Muslims would support this view, I see no reason why a Western country should not enforce its own dislike of certain practices if it goes against the national psyche.
Imagine a law in the UK that stated that no-one of the Muslin faith could visit the main centres of Christian worship, there wouldn’t be enough suicide vests to go round.

If a non Muslim of any Religion other than Islamic or Muslim goes to work in Saudi Arabia they must show on the application paperwork their religion. Neither can they keep any religious books or Christian symbols about their person or in their home, so with such contradictions between two sides of a religious divide I find the objections of those who wish to wear a veil that covers the face and call it an infringement of their freedoms rather bemusing when compared to the above example.


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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by newcastle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:54 pm

By the rest of the world I assume you mean those countries that would stone a homosexual to death......bah blah,
No....I meant the rest of the world quite literally...i.e all countries other than France Belgium & Austria.
I see no reason why a Western country should not enforce its own dislike of certain practices if it goes against the national psyche.
And the governments of France , Belgium and Austria agree with you.

Personally, I think it would be a sad day if the rest of the Western world pandered to this kind of populist bigotry.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by hatusu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:56 pm

Newcastle wrote "As far as I known, only France, Belgium and Austria have blanket bans on the niqab."

Women are not allowed to wear niqab on the hajj in Mecca.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by newcastle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:09 pm

hatusu wrote:Newcastle wrote "As far as I known, only France, Belgium and Austria have blanket bans on the niqab."

Women are not allowed to wear niqab on the hajj in Mecca.
There are many countries which impose reasoned restrictions...including many muslim majority countries.

That's why I referred to "blanket bans".

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:39 pm

newcastle wrote:I don't agree with banning the niqab when worn by a muslim woman walking about in the street.

What's the problem?

I don't think it should be allowed where facial expression is an integral part of the social intercourse.....hospitals, schools etc. And I can see some point in requiring its removal before entering a bank, jewelers etc.

But walking in the street??


I believe there are about 150 niqab wearers in Austria. They might be flattered to have a law designed especially for them :lol:
Mmm yes, "where facial expression is an integral part of the social intercourse"

Well, i think the most important thing when it comes to social intercourse is integration and walking down the street is the prime situation where that starts as im unlikely to bump into anyone dressed like that in the pub and the bank/hospital isnt the best place either to strike up a conversation.

In any case im sure her male relatives wont have the slightest problem with me passing the time of day with such a person in the spirit of community cohesion and integration.

As a libertarian i appose such bans as this is what separates us from places like Egypt with their authoritarian attitude/laws where being gay for example is a very dangerous lifestyle choice.

And of course all women who wear this do so completely out of choice and it has nothing to do with the fact that i suspect a lot of them were told from when they were wearing nappies that a good Muslim woman wears it and that to not do so will cause the men around her to become sexually aroused and it would be their fault of course. And as we know, there would be absolutely no social stigma attached to any woman who freely chose not to wear it in such a community and no pressure from their fathers/brothers/uncles would be forthcoming were she to chose to do.
so.

Im offended whenever i pass anyone dressed like that with the full covering, and as we live in an age where its all about offence im sure everyone feels really sorry for me.

The situation isnt helped when people from outside of these communities who would, if it were any other group of people object to this pointless, anti social, male driven, practice close their eyes to it and give them a free pass.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:47 pm

Mad Dilys wrote:Covering the face and hands is not required by the Koran, but in my experience many Middle Eastern women do this to stop from tanning, keeping their skin as light as possible. I have a neighbour in Luxor who suddenly started to wear the niqab and gloves when she got to middle age. Young women also wear it because they feel insecure about their facial features - just as Westerrn girls cover their faces with layers of make up and wear false eyelashes etc. Many girls won't let anyone see them without their slap on, but of course there is a huge difference between veiling with make up and masking with the niqab while the reason for doing so remains the same.
By the way, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not seen women inside the Mosque in Mecca wearing the niqab as they pray alongside men in accordance with Islam. Why are women segregated for prayer outside Mecca? In my opinion because of the enemy of mankind - Tradition. :td

While we are about it, I wonder about the "security aspects" of current trend for so called "Hipsters", Western men growing huge bushy beards obscuring the lower half of their face. Think about it. :urm:


Well i have thought about it and on reflection i would say that i would have no problem, in the spirit of equality in not objecting to women, Muslim or not going "hipster".

If its ok for the men then....

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by newcastle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:55 pm

As a libertarian i appose such bans......
We're agreed there then.

There is some disagreement as to whether a muslima wearing a niqab has been brainwashed, or forced to adopt this garb. It's unlikely to be the case for western converts . There have been plenty of niqab wearers stating on the news that it's their personal choice.

Whatever.....but in the case of a poor woman forced to adopt the veil if she wishes to leave the house, telling her she can't go outdoors either because of the law is not doing her any favours.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:02 pm

newcastle wrote:
As a libertarian i appose such bans......
We're agreed there then.

There is some disagreement as to whether a muslima wearing a niqab has been brainwashed, or forced to adopt this garb. It's unlikely to be the case for western converts . There have been plenty of niqab wearers stating on the news that it's their personal choice.

Whatever.....but in the case of a poor woman forced to adopt the veil if she wishes to leave the house, telling her she can't go outdoors either because of the law is not doing her any favours.
I think it could be argued that a "westerner" in some circumstances would be wearing it in order to press her new Muslim credentials.

As far as brainwashing and free will is concerned there is no reliable way to gauge this as speaking out about it isnt likely to end well for the person were she to say she felt pressured.

And by definition, if you have been brainwashed or preconditioned to want to do this then you are not going to be aware of this are you.

There are plenty of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who have testified to the fact that they were forced to wear it for me to conclude that this is a factor in a lot of cases.

But of course by speaking out Ali is considered by many apologists to be a racist Islamaphobe.

Heads you win tails i lose.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Personally, I think it would be a sad day if the rest of the Western world pandered to this kind of populist bigotry
You choose to live where you do and accept the local customs and laws even though many are repulsive to the rest of us who live elsewhere. So I choose to dislike this practice of covering the face as it offends my sense of respect for women’s freedom from what is essentially a misogynistic piece of apparel and you may call it pandering to populist bigotry, but we could level the same accusation at yourself.
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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:21 pm

Zooropa wrote:
newcastle wrote:
As a libertarian i appose such bans......
We're agreed there then.

There is some disagreement as to whether a muslima wearing a niqab has been brainwashed, or forced to adopt this garb. It's unlikely to be the case for western converts . There have been plenty of niqab wearers stating on the news that it's their personal choice.

Whatever.....but in the case of a poor woman forced to adopt the veil if she wishes to leave the house, telling her she can't go outdoors either because of the law is not doing her any favours.


I think it could be argued that a "westerner" in some circumstances would be wearing it in order to press her new Muslim credentials.

As far as brainwashing and free will is concerned there is no reliable way to gauge this as speaking out about it isnt likely to end well for the person were she to say she felt pressured.

And by definition, if you have been brainwashed or preconditioned to want to do this then you are not going to be aware of this are you.

There are plenty of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who have testified to the fact that they were forced to wear it for me to conclude that this is a factor in a lot of cases.

But of course by speaking out Ali is considered by many apologists to be a racist Islamaphobe.

Heads you win tails i lose.
Agreed, its putting the woman in an impossible situation - but perhaps its the only way to flush out those who claim to not be pressured when they actually are.

At the end of the day i can think or worse things than having to go out minus a piece of preferred clothing.

Not really a problem at all if the majority of women wear it freely.

Of course, this law is turning the wall around the screw when what really needs to happen is that everyone from outside of these communities makes it quite clear that forcing a woman to wear this or anything else is unacceptable and a violation of some of our most strongly held values.

This includes, and especially so, those people who seek to defend this practice who are in my opinion, nothing more than enablers.

Lets be honest, Muslim majority countries have no hesitance in upholding their values and they dont get nearly enough criticism/pressure for doing so so why shouldnt we?

The authorities also need to task the men from these communities on their lawful obligation of not forcing the women in their communities to do as they want.

But thats not going to happen is it, if the authorities are reluctant to act when men from these communities form rape gangs and groom women then the chances of them getting involved on this issue are zero.

Why bother when they can just say its a private family/community matter.

Let the sharia courts deal with it.

Everyones happy :br

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:32 pm

think it could be argued that a "westerner" in some circumstances would be wearing it in order to press her new Muslim credentials
I reckon you have hit the nail on the head there, why would any Western born woman living in a Western society want to wear one? If she is married to a Muslim man then it indicates a submission to his will as she would not have been brought up in that tradition. It cannot be for religious reasons as it is not a requirement of Islam. Neither can it be for modesty/chastity as some would claim, as again this type of garb has no connotations within Western culture of being an indicator of modesty, rather the opposite it is seen as a sign of male repression by most Westerners. So as it is not a requirement and neither does it infer modesty of the wearer to the average person, then it can only be as a statement of difference, “look at me I’m different to the rest of you”. Probably trekking around Marrakesh age 16 with a flower in their hair and wearing no knickers or burning their bra’s. :lol:
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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by newcastle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:09 pm

This thread's in danger of straying from the simple question "is it right for the law to ban a woman from wearing the niqab in the street".

So far I've seen lots of obfuscation about repressive islamic culture....from the (alleged) forcing of women to adopt the veil in public to the stoning of homosexuals, FGM, gang rapes and grooming of vulnerable girls.

The idea that the niqab is a misogynistic device forced upon unwilling females is disputed by many niqab wearers. In seeking to ban it completely, you are guilty of the same offence you ascribe to muslim men....forcing your viewpoint, with very limited anecdotal evidence, on someone else. Such "evidence" as there is (that it's fundamentally misogynistic) invariably comes from someone who has already decided that it's an exercise in male domination. Of course they'll claim that the lack of niqab wearers willing to complain about their plight is proof positive that these women are afraid to speak out. Objection, M'lud! The witness is relaying an entirely subjective opinion!

Unless there's a practical reason for banning the niqab (as covered previously) then, in a free society, anyone should be allowed to dress as they wish, within the bounds of decency.

I'll grant that a woman wearing the niqab is hardly adopting a dress code conducive to "integration"...but since when was a disinclination to integrate a criminal offence?

Or are you suggesting that , by forcing them to stay at home, or insisting that they discard the veil when out, you're striking a blow for female emancipation and they will change their customs and beliefs....to be more aligned with your own superior ones

If so, you're deluded.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:38 pm

newcastle wrote:This thread's in danger of straying from the simple question "is it right for the law to ban a woman from wearing the niqab in the street".

It would be easier and quicker to concede that you have lost the argument and so want to move on - since when have you been in charge of what can cannot be discussed?

So far I've seen lots of obfuscation about repressive islamic culture....from the (alleged) forcing of women to adopt the veil in public to the stoning of homosexuals, FGM, gang rapes and grooming of vulnerable girls

All facts, i dont subscribe to "feels not facts" if you find the truth unpleasant or upsetting then i dont give a sh*t.

The idea that the niqab is a misogynistic device forced upon unwilling females is disputed by many niqab wearers. In seeking to ban it completely, you are guilty of the same offence you ascribe to muslim men....forcing your viewpoint, with very limited anecdotal evidence, on someone else. Such "evidence" as there is (that it's fundamentally misogynistic) invariably comes from someone who has already decided that it's an exercise in male domination. Of course they'll claim that the lack of niqab wearers willing to complain about their plight is proof positive that these women are afraid to speak out. Objection, M'lud! The witness is relaying an entirely subjective opinion!

I dont support the ban and made this clear. Is there someone that can read this thread back to you if its not clear?

Quite why you feel the need to go into character of some sort of solicitor is beyond me, your argument that it isnt mysoginistic or that there is little evidence to show this, is just as speculative as claims that it is, i know you like to be superior on here but it doesnt elevate your subjective claims above others.

Ive made it clear that that arguments on both sides are based on unreliable accounts arising from potential situations the people involved may be in.

You never change, you want to dismiss people like Ayann Hirsi Ali when she relates her experiences and say her reasoning is because she has an agenda yet those who say they love being dressed up like a bin liner is evidence that they are no opressed and the rest of us are deluded, no chance of her evidence being unreliable of course, thats because it suits you enabler like opinion.


Unless there's a practical reason for banning the niqab (as covered previously) then, in a free society, anyone should be allowed to dress as they wish, within the bounds of decency.

Yawn, how many times do you want me to agree with this statement? Again, if your struggling to read this then please ask for assistance

I'll grant that a woman wearing the niqab is hardly adopting a dress code conducive to "integration"...but since when was a disinclination to integrate a criminal offence?

Well, perhaps it should be, not integrating is the single biggest cause of social tension and of course if it was us non Muslim/white westerners who didnt want to integrate you would be making the same case in our defence wouldnt you, no suggestions of racism/Islamophobia or Little Englander quips im sure.

Dont insult my intelligence.


Or are you suggesting that , by forcing them to stay at home, or insisting that they discard the veil when out, you're striking a blow for female emancipation and they will change their customs and beliefs....to be more aligned with your own superior ones

If so, you're deluded.
They are not being forced to stay at home, they are being told they cant come out looking like a frogman, i dont agree with it but seeing as they are not oppressed and choose to wear this item of clothing then it should not be a barrier to them going outside. Or do you think they are oppressed? Make your bloo*y mind up, you cant change elements of your case when it suits.

If you are trying (and it looks like you are) to suggest that oppression of women within Muslim communities does not exist and is the product of Islamophobes trying to skew the debate then you are the one that is deluded.

You are also an enabler of oppression.

You know my views on Religion, i hate them all and if i was asked to rank them i would say top is Islam, second is Catholicism, third is all the muppets in America who hold a bible in one hand and point and scream at gay people with the other followed by all the rest.

Yes, i do think my customs and beliefs are superior, i think thats demonstrable by my criticism on this and other threads. Clearly, most people in the west (minus enablers like yourself of course) think this to one degree or another otherwise we would all be adopting those beliefs instead of hanging on to the ones we have.

What obvious truths are you going to deny next and what nonsense are you going to use to try to do it?

Next you will be saying that women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to drive because they are too small to see above the dashboard.[/color]

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:59 pm

This ban would be no different to the smoking ban.

Now you cant smoke in virtually all public and private institutions, you cant even have a sneaky one in a three sided ramshackle bus shelter.

No one is suggesting that smokers are being forced to stay indoors in order to continue to smoke.

They are being told that out of consideration for other people they will be subject to restriction.

It is no different in this case.

Not wearing this item of clothing, in my opinion would benefit society as a whole because it would make integration more possible.

It would be regrettable if this was achieved through a ban but lets get real, its not going to happen any other way, any time soon.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:08 pm

Nicely put Z, it is noticeable that when examples of a follower of Islam is prevented from doing something it creates an outrage, but where is the same outrage when examples of Islamic countries imposing the same or similar restrictions on none Muslims are given? I have to agree that everything Newcastle says usually has the taint of lawyer speak about it, maybe another good reason to take everything he says with a very large pinch of salt and disbelief. Anyone who can happily live within a society as corrupt and biased against Western beliefs and culture as he does is hardly in a position to lecture the rest of us on our tolerance towards others. 8)
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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Zooropa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:14 pm

Saudi Car dealers see massive spike in sales as women are given the right to drive


http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/16/ger ... f-a-cliff/

Source:The FP Group Magazine.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:57 pm

Saudi Car dealers see massive spike in sales as women are given the right to drive

Wow that ban must have kept them constantly restricted to inside their homes, unable to participate in everyday things like shopping, having their hair and nails done, meeting their friends etc.
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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Horus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:01 pm

From the UK GOV site regarding Saudi Arabia
Islamic codes of behaviour and dress are strictly enforced. Women should wear conservative, loose-fitting clothes as well as a full length cloak (abaya) and a headscarf. Men should not wear shorts in public.

So who exactly is telling who how they should dress? But I suppose that is OK when the imposition is the other way around?
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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by Major Thom » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:13 am

What a fun place to live. Yes we are much happier where we are, being able to go where we want be it together or my wife being able to go about her business freely without the threat of sex mad morons attacking her. Oh yes that's her memories of Luxor.
I personally have a few good thoughts on Luxor, my best one is getting out when we did, my second is why it took us so long. It's hard I know to explain to people that are trapped there due to one thing or another, what freedom really means, some of you will understand others will still seek solace from a hole in the sand, some of you will just tootle along, singing the old Dusty Springfield hit "Wishing and Hoping"
I will state again our lives were not all that bad but when the people decided they could run the Country better everything went T--s UP!! For 3 years we enjoyed our lives, the other 5 was an uphill struggle that made us prisoners to our home, now our sentence is completed we intend to enjoy ourselves, away from the thieves, cheats and crooks.

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Re: Banning the Niqab

Post by newcastle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:59 am

The Thompson Twins in full flow :a8:

One displaying some unease at being confronted with an argued case; his sidekick twittering from the wings with a load of irrelevant distractions and personal insults. It appears Trump has a rival in this 'art'.

I thought you two had got over this kind of childish repartee. Apparently not. And I'm not going to waste my time rebutting the irrelevancies and non-sequiturs contained in your latest tirades.

I am relieved you oppose the idea of a blanket ban Zooropa. Not swayed by Horus' arguments then?

Like you, my outlook is essentially liberal, and I tend to resist the idea of anyone being told what they can wear. You maintain (without evidence) that no woman (or perhaps very few) would wear the hijab unless forced to by their husbands or the law of the country in which they reside.

An opinion, as I say, without evidence. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - a former devout Muslim who abandoned her faith and became an atheist - is entitled to her opinion too. I've yet to see her back it up with hard evidence. Incidentally, she too opposes a legal ban on the niqab/burqa.

The behaviour of France, Belgium & Austria in telling women that they cannot wear the niqab except in the privacy of their own home (where they wouldn't want to anyway!) is all-too-clear clear evidence of the oppression of the rights of certain women .

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