Gay Relationships In Luxor

Discuss the problems that can occur in relationships with differing cultures and help overcome any barriers that exist.

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King Tobenkhamun
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Gay Relationships In Luxor

Post by King Tobenkhamun »

The tabboo is ever apparent within Luxor and Egypt as it has always been with regards to Gay and Lesbian relationships both in a social and religious sense with true homosexuals repressed in fear of the law.

This said homosexuality exists in Luxor and I don't mean that of acts of prostitution or pre marital curiosities and sexual fulfilments.

With traditions upheld from the pillars of Islam towards respect and honour not only towards others but for the self being so high and ingrained within society it has always frustrated me that the rules are bent in most circumstances be it with alcohol, drugs, missing ritual prayers, prostitution, intercultural multiple marriages etc but never towards homosexuality.

I have known of genuine gay Egyptian men and their struggle to conceal their true identity and sexual preferences from the persecution of others and all I can do as a western Gay male is empathise sincerely for the hell of a plight they face on a daily basis.

HAVE THE ATTITUDES OF LUXORIANS TOWARDS HOMOSEXUALLITY BECOME BETTER OR WORSE IN RECENT YEARS...?


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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Alcohol=forbidden by the Quran (with certain sanctions but no punishment required), legal under the law
Drugs=forbidden by the Quran (as parallel to alcohol), illegal under the law
Missing ritual prayers=forbidden by the Quran (but no punishment required), legal under the law
Prostitution=Forbidden by the Quran (with punishment specified), illegal under the law
Intercultural multiple marriages=Permitted by the Quran, legal under the law
Homosexuality=forbidden by the Quran (and possibly punishable depending on interpretation), illegal under the law

You've lumped together a lot of things about which there are different rules.

Why does it bother you that people choose to follow rules?

And why do you say in MOST cases people break the rules about certain things. How can you judge an entire society like that?

And why do you assume that people aren't breaking the rules about homosexuality as well?

Better or worse, I don't think the society is clamoring to change these rules, regardless of the actions of some people.

People in every society do things they know are against their religion and/or laws of their country. They do so knowing they are wrong to do so often, but just because they are doing wrong things doesn't mean they are also clamoring to change the laws to make those wrong things acceptable. If that were the case then you would be legalizing looting in the UK.
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Post by Arthur »

Glyphdoctor wrote:Homosexuality=forbidden by the Quran (and possibly punishable depending on interpretation), illegal under the law
Homosexuality is not mentioned in Egyptian law, all the defendants in the Cairo Queens Boat trial, 10 years ago, were convicted of the crime of “debauchery” (fujur).

Cultural attitudes can change anywhere but that does not mean that they will. Social change usually takes place in tandem with wider prosperity, when individuals can think and act more independently. I wouldn't hold out for any significant change in attitudes to LGBT Egyptians in Luxor in the near future.
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Post by TonyC »

Everything I've read supports Arthur's view – homosexual acts would be illegal under public decency laws but homosexuality is not recognised by the law. But that didn't stop the government cracking down on gays, and in that it had the tacit approval of most of society, which disapproves on religious and moral grounds.

And a society that's disinclined to tackle women's rights is going to put homosexuals' rights way down the agenda.
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Post by Arthur »

I'm with you there Tony.

Just to point out there is a difference between punishing sexual acts ( forbidden in the Qur'an but punishable only with 4 witnesses) and being gay.

The crackdowns 10 years ago were nothing to do with sexual acts, the men were charged with 'debauchery' for attending a disco or just being friends, nothing to do with sex. The regime used internationally condemned and illegal medical torture to determine 'proof' of homosexuality. This was about scapegoating identities rather than 'crimes' and was a way of safegurading the popularity of the regime and to bolster its corrupt vice squads.

Gay identity and 'lifestyles' were used as a sop against 'foreign' culture at a time when Egypt was economically tied to 'foreign' aid and tourism. Foreign gay couples cruising the nile, no problem. Gay egyptians socialising, no way.

Who knows how the revolution will affect social issues like this in years to come? However the ultra-conservatives will have an uphill battle using science to bolster their 'morality'. Plus ca change.
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Post by King Tobenkhamun »

Hopefully for the better as attitudes towards most other social issues are relaxed to suit, sh*g paper marriages being one. A lot of young Luxorian lads make the rules up as the go along and I have no time for the disco prostitutes, get a job, its just greed brought to the table by satellite tv and daft western women encouraging such poor behaviour. Thank god for the genuine hardworking Luxorian lads, working hard, honouring their religion and providing for themselves and their families. If it werent for them Luxor for many tourists would be no mote than a historic brothel.

It gets my back up how sweet some smug sh*t bags get it in Luxor and how daft those who encourage it are, I would suggest learning a bit of Arabic, it may just shatter the Rose tinted glasses if you're smart enough.

Many repressed Egyptian homosexual men in Luxor have it so damn hard and more should be talked about and actioned wherever possible to aid those persecuted by outdated traditions as it is only too apparent that the rules are often bent for their straight contemporaries.
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Post by Who2 »

I never like to comment on sexual preferences or practices, be it male or female old or young, on this forum, especially in Luxor. Why ?
"It's a cesspit of despond, going nowhere. A lot of very confused individuals that think that their lives are so interesting, when in reality it's just a very sad web of misunderstood sexualy based f......-up individuals.
I might have lost the thread here a bit, but basically 'you sow what you reap and if if you make your bed, lie in it, Me ? 'I really couldn't give a flying f..k...........8)
ps. it's that time of night
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Post by King Tobenkhamun »

Thanks for you input and indeed you do reap what you sow. Unfortunately many are not given the same chances for freedom of expression as we are.

Your post who2 would imply that homosexuals deserve to be persecuted...?

Quite a homophobic post in my opinion when the purpose of this thread is to raise a body of awareness towards an ongoing genuine struggle especially in Egypt and accross the Islamic world in general.

I'm sure you could quote something within a different forum more suited to your opinions on this subject. Surely your not that bored or arrogant to not recognise anothers sexuality...?

I always got the impression that L4U discouraged such narrow minded posting...?
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Post by Who2 »

Dont shoot the messenger or even the message, your the one that started the thread. I live in a very gay (happy) Clerkenwell also a very repressed gay (sorded) Luxor, I never set the rules I just live amonst them and get on very well, Iv'e never been able to justify putting my willy up another mans bum, you might find this strange, but I find it quite normal...sorry....8)
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Sophocles.
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Post by King Tobenkhamun »

This thread has nothing to do with the personal preffrences of individual members and you appear to have a distorted biast view of homosexuality.

If you have anything intellectual to add on the ACTUAL topic please do. Your views would be better served in a topic away from Homosexuallity as you clearly do not understand or are willing to contribute towards the purpose of the topic.

I understand how a topic such as this can threaten the 'less capable poster'.

I suggest you don't continue to post on this subject as it is apparent it is something you are uneasy about for whatever reason...? Being all adults there should be no reason why we can't discuss a varied selection of topics. This thread is not designed to shock or sensationalise the issue. Purely however to raise positive awareness of the REALNESS of the subject.
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Post by Who2 »

You seem to be trying to justify or understand homosexuality in the Muslim World, hopefully, including the female gender rather than just concentrating on the male.
If you want me to 'intelectualise (try to justify) the subject my education I am afraid dosen't stretch that far and dosen't really want to.
And, if the Muslim World as most other World religons have a problem with it as you seem to have, is that my problem. In the greater scheme of things it really is just a drop in the Ocean. try to live with it and move on......8)
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

King Tobenkhamun wrote:Hopefully for the better as attitudes towards most other social issues are relaxed to suit, sh*g paper marriages being one. A lot of young Luxorian lads make the rules up as the go along and I have no time for the disco prostitutes, get a job, its just greed brought to the table by satellite tv and daft western women encouraging such poor behaviour. Thank god for the genuine hardworking Luxorian lads, working hard, honouring their religion and providing for themselves and their families. If it werent for them Luxor for many tourists would be no mote than a historic brothel.

Many repressed Egyptian homosexual men in Luxor have it so damn hard and more should be talked about and actioned wherever possible to aid those persecuted by outdated traditions as it is only too apparent that the rules are often bent for their straight contemporaries.
This is hypocritical. So on one side we have the men who marry western women on one side, who are immoral in your eyes, and on the other the hard-working religious ones, with whom you seem to be lumping the homosexuals?

Let me tell you something, I think women who marry orfi are fools and harming themselves, but...it is still marriage if the marriage is conducted according to the rules of Islam. Now, some of these marriages aren't conducted that way, with the witnesses signing the paper beforehand and the like, but if we have not ourselves witnessed them being performed in an improper manner, then we have no right to say they are illicit or immoral relationships instead of marriages. There may be immoral actions going on within the marriage, but they are still marriages.

Your argument though seems to be the straight people are immoral and get away with it, so why can't the gays too? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Religion may be an outdated concept for you, but it isn't for Egyptians. Egyptians identify themselves by their religion more than any other country in the world. Whether they behave morally or not is one thing, but even when they do they normally know it is wrong. They may try to justify immoral behavior with circumstantial excuses, they may hope God will forgive them, but believe me, none of them are going to suddenly wake up one day and believe that God gives them his blessing to do these things. And if they don't see God giving them the right to do something, they are not going to think that they are in the RIGHT to do it, EVEN if they do it.

You are not going to turn Luxor into a cheap and sunny version of London gay nightlife, so stop while you are ahead.
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Arthur wrote:
Homosexuality is not mentioned in Egyptian law, all the defendants in the Cairo Queens Boat trial, 10 years ago, were convicted of the crime of “debauchery” (fujur).
True, but it was interpreted to be a form of debauchery under the law. They were not convicted for having too many people on the boat. If they had not been considered to be homosexual, they would not have been convicted for debauchery. And this case has set a precedent that could be used again. In the future, a judge could cite this case to justify making a similar ruling against others. Like in other countries, court cases here are decided based on laws and precedent.
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Re: Gay Relationships In Luxor

Post by Glyphdoctor »

King Tobenkhamun wrote:
I have known of genuine gay Egyptian men and their struggle to conceal their true identity and sexual preferences from the persecution of others and all I can do as a western Gay male is empathise sincerely for the hell of a plight they face on a daily basis.
And there are men whose sexual preference would be Paris Hilton or Shakira, but they don't always get their way either. So does that mean they are facing hell? This is a society where people accept arranged marriages, where people marry their cousin simply because she is their cousin, where many think love comes after marriage not before, where some prefer to marry someone they consider unattractive. It's not a society where pursuing your personal preference is always considered preferable. So if the gay men are suffering, the straight men are too, but still these traditions are very common, which suggests this is not an issue of sexual orientation, if it is even a real issue at all in this particular society. And if anything, I think your "genuine gays" are being influenced by the same Western influences that you are saying their straight counterparts are, which begs the question why do you consider them more worthy of being allowed to follow their preferences than the straight ones.
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Post by Chocolate Eclair »

Glyph when I read the first post, it did not mention just Muslim People, it mentioned people in Luxor, then you said everything that the Koran preaches, but don't forget that there are Christians living in Luxor that are not governed by the Koran...

Myself and Wife know many gay people, we are not gay ourselves, but we live and let live, and never has one gay person harmed us in any way whatsoever.... nor have they tried anything when they know we are straight...

We prefer to judge people by what they are and not what they represent.
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Post by Deedee2 »

Glyph - you are right about marrying unattractive women through preference. I once had a discussion with a man who had recently married an Egyptian girl and he said that he was careful how he chose his wife and did not want her to be beautiful as he did not intend to spend the rest of his life feeling jealous when men looked at her.

(Sorry I know my comment is off topic but it was a point that interested me).
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Chocolate Eclair wrote:Glyph when I read the first post, it did not mention just Muslim People, it mentioned people in Luxor, then you said everything that the Koran preaches, but don't forget that there are Christians living in Luxor that are not governed by the Koran...
And that is why later I referred to religion, not Islam. But it is beside the point, the ones that aren't Muslim are Christian, and the attitudes and rules are the same.
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Post by Arthur »

Glyphdoctor wrote:If they had not been considered to be homosexual, they would not have been convicted for debauchery.
There is nothing in the Qur'an about punishing people for being "considered to be homosexual". There are proscriptions against sex outside of marriage. And there is the catch 22 for gay muslims. Heterosexual muslims can and are encouraged to find sexual fulfillment through marriage. Clearly that is not going to be possible in the near future for gay or lesbian muslims in the arab world. But it is possible and practiced by muslims in the growing number of countries that recognise same-sex partnerships.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12486003

There are also those who challenge the orthodox interpretations of the Quranic story of Lut.

The word ‘homosexuality’ does not exist in the Qur'an. The assumptions made about homosexuality and Islam are often based on references to the story of Lut in the Qur'an. Recent scholars (Jamal, Nahas, Kugle) have analysed the verses* that are thought to mention homosexuality and come up with new interpretations based on techniques of interpretation used by reformist scholars and feminist scholars working on gender topics. In doing so they have tried to challenge the heterosexual bias of former interpretations in order to clarify and dissolve the widely held misconceptions and assumptions underlying Muslim laws and within Muslim societies about same-sex sexuality and same-sex relationships.

The words that are often translated or taken to be referring to (male) homosexuality include:

Al Fahisha (e.g. in 7:80 & 27:54) Atrocity or gruesome deeds
Al Khabaidh (e.g. in 21:74) Improper or unseemly things
Al Munkar (e.g. in 29:29) That which is reprehensable
As Sayyi'aat (e.g. in 11:78) Bad or evil deeds
(For more detailed analysis of these words see Jamal).

The word fahisha is most often quoted as referring to homosexuality. Although some scholars reinterpreting these verses have accepted that this term includes homosexual behaviour they also explain that it does not refer explicitly or only to homosexuality but to all kinds of ‘illicit sexual behaviour’ being carried out on a large scale (Nahas, Kugle).

They argue that the story of Lut is not specifically about same-sex sexuality and/or same-sex relationships. They believe that the story is about a people who are punished for committing several forms of unlawful (sexual) behaviour, including widespread promiscuity, bestiality, paedophillia, inhospitality towards guests as well as abuse of power, rape and intimidation. Another argument is that in the story of Lut, similar to other stories about the rejection of a prophet (Noah, Ibrahim, Musa), the people are punished not just for a particular sin or sins but for rejecting their prophet (Jamal). From these analyses it can be concluded that the verses in the story of Lut are not referring to homosexuality in the sense of same-sex sexuality or relationships as we understand them in the West today. (For more detailed analysis of the Qur'anic verses and the story of Lut see Yoesuf Foundation, Nahas, Kugle, Jamal).

It should also be noted that there is a similar but not identical Biblical story of Lot in which homosexuality is more explicitly mentioned. It has been argued that the biblical story and the Christian interpretations of it have significantly influenced Muslim interpretations of the story of Lut in the Qur'an (Kugle)...

http://www.safraproject.org/sgi-malesex ... dislam.htm

To go back to your endorsement of the criminalisation of those attending the Queen Boat disco. You are not normally silent on medical ethics. It is well documented* that invasive medical procedures amounting to torture under international law are used to convict gay egyptians. Perhaps you would like to condemn such practices...

*http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/ ... 0304_0.pdf p.107

The American Psychological Association affirmed in 1973 that homosexuality is not a disorder followed by the World Health Organisation in 1992. The APA concludes: "altering sexual orientation is not an appropriate goal of psychiatric treatment... Clinical experience indicates that those who have integrated their sexual orientation into a positive sense of self function at a healthier psychological level than those who have not."

As with FGM, longstanding cultural norms, can be overturned. Ill-informed prejudices can be changed through education. But this is a matter for Egypt to resolve.
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Post by TonyC »

Arthur wrote:
Glyphdoctor wrote:If they had not been considered to be homosexual, they would not have been convicted for debauchery.
To go back to your endorsement of the criminalisation of those attending the Queen Boat disco.../quote]
I do hope GD's statement was not an endorsement of the disco boat judgment – though it did make my eyes widen! To trump up charges to victimise people for what they are perceived to be rather than what they are actually doing is real Dark Ages thinking. So let us hope that the judiciary in the new Egypt won't bow to pressure to act so corruptly, from government or society at large.
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Post by Arthur »

Exactly, Tony. :)
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