Gay Relationships In Luxor

Discuss the problems that can occur in relationships with differing cultures and help overcome any barriers that exist.

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Mad Dilys
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Post by Mad Dilys »

I think that's A4's quote not mine Jojo. You know who I am anyway, surely? : ;)


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Post by Mad Dilys »

Arthur wrote:
JOJO wrote:Oh Arthur you must of been at your wits end with worry while you partner as been in jail! Is he ok?
Thank you for sharing that with us it must have been harrowing for you seeing your partner in so much pain - The ********! :x
It sounds to me on perseverance alone you and your partner will overcome these obstacles and will have have a great life together. loadsa hugs to you both xx
Thanks for your best wishes. It has certainly been a journey, but I defer to MD's wisdom: "personal lives are better kept personal - that's not secret, just not a subject for public debate".

Happy to share the image that will be familiar to many here. I remember from my first trip to Egypt, flying in across the coast off Alexandria, seeing nothing but desert for thousands of miles. And then you see the tiny hazy green ribbon of the Nile meandering through this, impossibily. You know from lessons at school that this thread started life half a continent away in deepest Africa. You learned that it is the longest river in the world and almost unique among rivers in flowing north. It cuts its path through mountains and cataracts, just flowing until it finds the sea.

Just because something is difficult, or you hit something unexpected, you may stop, and have doubts, reflect and take stock, and then you continue if you still believe in it. I still believe, but the journey isn't yet complete.

Someone told me once there's a river in Australia that doesn't reach the sea, but ends in the desert. That was a challenging thought. But then, not everything that flows is above ground. And things end where they end.
That is lovely Arthur and certainly touches a chord with me.
Incidentally, I didn't really know what prejudice was until I settled in Egypt.
Most of it came from Europeans and the rest from Christians.
I've been married almost 20 years now, but I know that if I died tomorrow the comments following me to the grave would be the same as they would have been 20 years ago. Prejudice dies very slowly.
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Post by A-Four »

JOJO wrote:
A-Four wrote:
Glyphdoctor wrote: Ooooo or should I say whooooo you tease!! :lol:
Oh no JoJo, nothing that special, its just I lived quite near to Jane, and I half suspect she may know who I am. That lady is no fool, the only gripe I ever had with her was that I did not like her advertiseing on our members only history section, and once when she called an article I wrote on Howard Carter.....Janet and John, but everything I wrote on that essay was fact, and to this day has not been disputed.

I do thank Jane for adittional info she wrote that has since been removed in her recent post, I did suspect, but yes I am sure you are right, but look, Stan and Kevin are not here at the moment, I am just a junior. You know how these 'trolls' work, like you, I can see what damage they are trying to do with this site.

O.K., stay in the background, but please come farward if needed.
Last edited by A-Four on Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arthur
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Post by Arthur »

Mad Dilys wrote: Incidentally, I didn't really know what prejudice was until I settled in Egypt.
Most of it came from Europeans and the rest from Christians.
I've been married almost 20 years now, but I know that if I died tomorrow the comments following me to the grave would be the same as they would have been 20 years ago. Prejudice dies very slowly.
I'm sad to hear that MD. I have enormous respect for your usual wise words and I agree people who are poisoned with hate don't give it up easily, or may never do so.

I heard a Canadian police officer describe a theory of 20:60:20 for organisational change about 15 years ago. There had been a series of murders of gay men and no-one would come forward because of police homophobia. He had been sent in to build bridges and counter the anti-gay office culture among the police. His theory goes that there are in any body of people 20% of reactionaries opposed to change, 60% in the middle that go with the flow, and 20% who are the progressives. If 21% tell racist jokes, the 60% in the middle laugh nervously at the jokes, and the other 19% who object are silenced. But a slight change, and if 21% say racist jokes are not funny and unacceptable, the 60% stop laughing, and it is enough to silence the racists. His theory worked in Toronto.
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Arthur-It doesn't matter what your government thinks about these matters, what my government thinks about these matters, what your local imam thinks about these matters, or what I or MD or anyone else here thinks about these matters. What God thinks about these matters is what counts in the end. What you believe God thinks may be different from what I believe God thinks.

You may call that homophobic, but you should look at the rather denigrating and dismissive remarks you have repeatedly made about heterosexual marriage in this thread, which as far as I can tell, is legal in every country and respected by every religion.

And for your information, my position on marriage in the US is that the government should stay out of defining what marriage is at all and that it should be a freely entered into contract with the terms and conditions set by those who enter into it that can then be enforced by a court. There are simply too many different religions and viewpoints in the US for one size marriage fits all there.

In Egypt, where 99.99% of the people have a religious identity, then using religious rules to define marriage is best.

However, that does not mean that marriage is a sacrament in Islam. It is a legal contract, nothing more, nothing less, one that does not require the intervention of any clergy types whatsoever to be performed. Imams are not required. Nor are imams formal clergy to begin with. I just point this out lest anyone be fooled by your trying to equivocate an imam's role with that of a Christian priest or minister.
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Post by Arthur »

Glyphdoctor wrote:you should look at the rather denigrating and dismissive remarks you have repeatedly made about heterosexual marriage in this thread
I've looked but couldn't find any. Perhaps you'd point out the remarks you're referring to.
Glyphdoctor wrote:What God thinks about these matters is what counts in the end.
And that is a matter between an individual and their maker, if they are a believer. You are not all seeing or knowing, so maybe you might pause before you set yourself up as judge and jury on people about whom you know diddly squat.

The fact that an imam is willing to take a non-religious legal role as witness in a civil partnership, is indicative that some muslims who have spent their lives deeply reflecting on their faith may reach a different conclusion to you. No more no less.

Can you finally answer my question as to what a god-fearing gay ( or lesbian) Egyptian is to do to be true to themselves, their nature, their family and their faith. You don't advocate lifelong celibacy, you don't advocate them trying to change a culture. You appear to want them to live a lie, leave the country, or, in your vision of islam, go to hell.
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Post by Who2 »

I really think that this subject has been done to death over the last forty years, I am fed up with hearing about it speaking from a minority hetrosexual point of view.
If one thinks that homosexuality be it male/female/an-other is ok then fair be it, but stop trying to convince the rest of this World.....8)
"The Salvation of Mankind lies in making everything the responsibility of All"
Sophocles.
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Arthur
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Post by Arthur »

Who2 wrote:I really think that this subject has been done to death over the last forty years, I am fed up with hearing about it speaking from a minority hetrosexual point of view.
Your'e fed up with hearing about it, but just couldn't stop yourself from clicking on "Gay relationships in Luxor"...? Hmm! ;)
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Post by Miriamkhalifa »

Arthur wrote:
Who2 wrote:I really think that this subject has been done to death over the last forty years, I am fed up with hearing about it speaking from a minority hetrosexual point of view.
Your'e fed up with hearing about it, but just couldn't stop yourself from clicking on "Gay relationships in Luxor"...? Hmm! ;)
:P Well said
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Post by Bearded Brian »

Some people probably got fed up of blacks complaining, or slaves complaining (or people complaining on their behalf), or women wanting the vote or any one complaining whether they are a minority or a majority. So should they have given up speaking out? In theory everyone should have equal rights regardless of their colour, religion, race, sex, age etc. Ok that is unlikely ever to happen but that shouldn't stop people trying.
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Post by TonyC »

Neatly put, BB :) Step by step, as they say in Egypt (no idea of the phonetic spelling!)
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Post by Mimimay »

shwaiya shwaiya eh TonyC ! :lol:
Different eyes see different things......different hearts beat different strings Image
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Post by Who2 »

Arthur wrote:
Who2 wrote:I really think that this subject has been done to death over the last forty years, I am fed up with hearing about it speaking from a minority hetrosexual point of view.
Your'e fed up with hearing about it, but just couldn't stop yourself from clicking on "Gay relationships in Luxor"...? Hmm! ;)
I could have given the censor a field day, satements like: 'having it shoved down my throat, 'continually beating us over the head with it.
But no, I curbed myself.......8)
'the silent majority'
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Post by Teddyboy »

Perhaps Mr Keefy could introduce a 'Non PC' button?
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Post by Arthur »

Who2 look away now. TB press your anti-PC button now.

Egypt's interim government proposes in its "Basic Constitutional Principles": "The Arab Republic of Egypt is a civil democratic state based on citizenship and the rule of law, and respects pluralism, and guarantees freedom, justice, and equality, and provides opportunities to all citizens without discrimination... Every human has the right to enjoy the sanctity of his private life..."

It may do well to consider the 1999 conclusions of South Africa's Constitutional Court:

"Privacy recognizes that we all have a right to a sphere of private intimacy and autonomy which allows us to establish and nurture human relationships without interference from the outside community. The way in which we give expression to our sexuality is at the core of this area of private intimacy. If, in expressing our sexuality, we act consensually and without harming one another, invasion of that precinct will be a breach of our privacy...

Equality means equal concern and respect across difference. It does not pre-suppose the elimination or suppression of difference. Respect for human rights requires the affirmation of self, not the denial of self. Equality therefore does not imply a leveling or homogenization of behavior but an acknowledgment and acceptance of difference. At the very least, it affirms that difference should not be the basis for exclusion, marginalization, stigma and punishment. At best, it celebrates the vitality that difference brings to any society. …

The acknowledgement and acceptance of difference is particularly important in our country where group membership has been the basis of express advantage and disadvantage. The development of an active rather than a purely formal sense of enjoying a common citizenship depends on recognizing and accepting people as they are…. The invalidation of antisodomy laws will mark an important moment in the maturing of an open democracy based on dignity, freedom and equality."


Human understanding is not frozen in time. The Arab world was once at the forefront of scientic study. If same-sex orientation is so harmful to individuals and the good of society, then popular prejudice needs to be tested against against a body of rigorous ethical scientific research. Ignorance is no justification for criminaliising and excluding a sizeable minority of a population. Where is the evidence of harm?
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Post by Who2 »

Quote: Where is the evidence of harm?

Try asking the children placed in 'care by the World's religons...........8)
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Post by Mad Dilys »

Dear Doctor, if you ask the children placed in care, I wonder how many would have been abused by family members.

I think like most murders the perpetrators are relatives of one kind or another.

Another thought - why are they originally placed in care?

I agree that a disgraceful number of children have been harmed in one way or another by representatives of the world's religions, but let us be fair - if that is possible with such a subject.
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Post by Arthur »

Who2 wrote:Quote: Where is the evidence of harm?

Try asking the children placed in 'care by the World's religons...........8)
We're discussing adult consensual same-sex relationships in Egypt conducted in private. If you want to understand and stop the sexual abuse of minors, again, ignorance and prejudice isn't going to help you...

"The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes..."

"Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..."

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/h ... ation.html

There's a useful critic of the religious right's distortion of research of child abuse to support their homophobia here:
http://www.internationalorder.org/scandal_response.html

If you want to have a go at the Vatican's policies on sexual repression, enforced celibacy, exclusion of gay priests, etc... start a new thread.
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Post by Brian Yare »

"Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child."

175 to 1 does not seem fair.

;) ;)
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Post by Who2 »

I didn't really want to say anything, other than it's a slippery old slope, with no sense of a 'self determind moral compass........8)
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