Sex tourism

[Arthur]

Is gay sex tourism more of a problem than straight sex tourism?

[Kevininabydos]

That depends on your perspective! ie: From a Muslim point of view or a Western. But all 'sex tourism' is a problem.

[DJKeefy]

In the many many years I have lived here and dealt with many tourists I would say it is very little compared to hetrosexual community, Just look around and see how many females you see with Egyptians, compared with how many European men you see with Egyptians. The reason why gay people get painted with the same brush is cause of the few that go off with young lads, yet some women do the same.

[Glyphdoctor]

You know, I really feel sorry for you Arthur. You've CHOSEN an impossible and hopeless path for yourself in life. It's never too late to cut your losses and move on.

[Kevininabydos]

A bit harsh GD and very unfair! You do not choose who to fall in love with in this life.

[Arthur]

You know, I really feel sorry for you Arthur. You've CHOSEN an impossible and hopeless path for yourself in life. It's never too late to cut your losses and move on.

What are you suggesting?

[Mad Dilys]

A bit harsh GD and very unfair! You do not choose who to fall in love with in this life.

I agree Kevin and also with Keefy. There are far more women enjoying dalliences on holiday than men - and you can make of that what you will.

From a Muslim perspective I don't think there is any difference surely?

[Bearded Brian]

Sorry Kevin can't agree with your 'A bit harsh GD and very unfair!' comment it's really a bloody stupid comment by GD. Next she will be telling us the earth is flat. I usually have respect for what GD says but this is just so unbelievable.

[Who2]

You can only serve one master, in the end. As you 'become what you think about.
Sexual feeding, which is only 'brain food will overtake feeding of the brain, eg: fat people = eat food. Feed your brain with sex, it will become perverted, it's either an upward or downward spiral.
'So chose your God carefully, For You, 'Your religion is what you, think most about...

[Brian Yare]

W2

I think I need a translator. It might help if your quotation signs, assuming that is what some of the apostrophes are meant to be, were matched.

Could you please reformat in English, or explain?

[Who2]

A mate of mine, Will Self always assumed I would struggle to reach his level of understanding, he never lowered himself or his mentality to my level.
A struggle understood by both parties. Tonight's Film ? 'Darby O' Gill and the Little People a Walt Disney classic........

[Isis*dancer]

A bit harsh GD and very unfair! You do not choose who to fall in love with in this life.

Actually you do choose who you love and up with in life. If you had no choice in the matter then you would not be happy nor satisfied in the relationship.

I also take exception to Arthur's naive assumption in an effort to support his own argument, is that all foreign women with Egyptian men in Luxor are on a sex tourism mission. You know full well how homosexual realtionships are viewed in Egypt Arthur but you seem to need assurance that all is okay because women are involved in sex tourism and that means all women with Egyptian husbands or partners.

[Glyphdoctor]

I wish Arthur all the happiness in the world, but he is ignoring reality. What he wants is impossible due to the laws of Egypt AND his own country (ie visa and immigration laws, which he chooses to never criticize).

While it is not a direct correlation, we all see ladies coming here with their different Mohammeds and we know their relationships are doomed due to the lack of sincerity of Mohammed and we advise them their relationships may be doomed. I think there is more margin for us to be wrong when it comes to cases like that actually, but when you are up against laws, it is a whole different matter.

And its not just a matter of gender, but now we are talking about someone who has had a criminal conviction (which may have been a false conviction). These sorts of things can kill an Egyptian's chances of emigration entirely to certain countries.

[Mad Dilys]

A bit harsh GD and very unfair! You do not choose who to fall in love with in this life.

Actually you do choose who you love and up with in life. If you had no choice in the matter then you would not be happy nor satisfied in the relationship.

I also take exception to Arthur's naive assumption in an effort to support his own argument, is that all foreign women with Egyptian men in Luxor are on a sex tourism mission. You know full well how homosexual realtionships are viewed in Egypt Arthur but you seem to need assurance that all is okay because women are involved in sex tourism and that means all women with Egyptian husbands or partners.

Really?

I can't believe that you have never heard of unrequited love and all it's attendant problems.

[Arthur]

I also take exception to Arthur's naive assumption ... that all foreign women with Egyptian men in Luxor are on a sex tourism mission.... and that means all women with Egyptian husbands or partners.

Don't be ridiculous, ID. I neither believe nor have I said any such thing. I simply asked whether sex tourism is more of a gay problem than a straight one in Luxor.

You know full well how homosexual realtionships are viewed in Egypt Arthur.

Indeed, which is why I have been inordinately careful to support and protect my partner.

However, on the issue of sexual abuse I have much sympathy with the view of your own Australian Institute of Criminology which reports: "Laws making homosexual acts illegal and/or marking a difference between homosexual and heterosexual acts, do not stop men having sex with men, but drive a minority underground, render them liable to blackmail, violence, scapegoating, discrimination, and cause immeasurable human suffering". http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/F/2/E/% ... 7Dti29.pdf

If, like me, you are seriously concerned with protecting the vulnerable from sexual exploitation and domestic abuse, you might agree that making them outcasts and beyond the reach of support agencies is only likely to cause more harm to the very people suffering such abuse.

In the UK that's why NSPCC, Barnados, NCH Action for Children, the National Youth Agency, the National Children’s Bureau, the British Youth Council, Save the Children, the Family Welfare Association, the Health Education Authority, the British Medical Association, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists all supported an equal age of consent equal for gay and straight sex. Notable among the agencies not supporting such measures were the institutions that have carried out and covered up the systematic sexual abuse of young men (and women) in their care across the world, the ones whose leaders publicly condemn homosexuality as "intrinsically evil"...

I haven't judged, denigrated or condemned any woman's relationships with Egyptian men, but have you forgotten your own comments... viewtopic.php?p=285018&highlight=#285018

[Arthur]

What he wants is impossible due to the laws of Egypt AND his own country (ie visa and immigration laws, which he chooses to never criticize).

I have no reason to share my criticism or knowledge of UK immigration laws regarding proposed civil partnership visas, as noone here has ever asked. And why would they with predators such as yourself wanting to rip into them?

However, I can assure you that I have had a long running dialogue with my MP (who supported my partner's previous successful student visa application), and has questioned and received assurances, on my behalf, from three separate government ministers over the last eight years. My MP has pledged his written support to my partner's visa application.

I'm happy to give you details of my criticisms of UK immigration law and correspondence with the Entry Clearance Manager in the UK Embassy in Cairo (who assures me they regularly process successful applications from gay Egyptians safely), and direct you to comments I've made on immigration baords in the UK if you want but I'm sure it would bore others senseless, and to be frank, it is none of your business, and nothing to do with sex tourism.

UK law guarantees equality between gay and straight couples including for immigration. The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 state:
8.—(1) It is unlawful for a public authority exercising a function to do any act which constitutes discrimination... 34.—(2) Regulation 8, in so far as it relates to granting entry clearance (within the meaning of the Immigration Acts), applies to anything done whether inside or outside the United Kingdom.
And no, having a criminal record is not a bar to settlement in the UK.

Oh, and regarding Egyptian law, you said homosexuality is "illegal under the law"...

Homosexuality is not mentioned in Egyptian law, all the defendants in the Cairo Queens Boat trial, 10 years ago, were convicted of the crime of “debauchery” (fujur).

True, but....

Difficult yes, impossible, you wish. Sorry to disappoint you.

And thanks for turning a legitimate question about sex tourism into yet another personal and unjustified attack on me.

[TonyC]

Putting the topic of sex tourism under "Relationships" may have encouraged Glyphdoctor to make it personal! The first three posts dealt with the topic before it went swiftly off track; any chance, if there are views on the problem, we could get back to it? The personal stories are important, but not to be pored over here.

[Arthur]

I never travel alone in Egypt precisely because on the occasions I have I been propositioned sexually by taxi drivers, waiters, fellucca men and indeed army officers. A culture which turns a blind eye to sexual harassment, which is what I consider this to be, will inevitably end up with a sex tourist problem. And it isn't only gay men who suffer such harassment. I am sure many of the straight expats who live in Luxor have experienced this. They are probably too shocked to report such incidents.

Where people are willing to trade sex there are a minority of people who will see it as a commodity to buy. The only difference in Luxor is that it is men (predominantly but apparently not exclusively) who are doing the selling.

My point (made above) is that if you do not allow for any differentiation between consenting adult relationships between men (leaving aside the tourist element for one second) and rape, sexual exploitation and abuse, then you make people more vulnerable to abuse not less, and more likely to find a sexual outlet through illicit sex in public places or prostitution.

[Who2]

I used to be regularly propositioned, but once they knew me and also them, not wanting to get a verbal tongue lashing or even a swift knee into their nether regions if persistent, always seemed to do the trick. Perhaps it's my good looks, but more likely we get tarred with that same brush, male and female tourists alike.
Basically 'get a grip of one's lower emotions and realise that there is a lot more to life than feeding one's sexual urges.........

[Glyphdoctor]

Many a relationship in Luxor (male and female) started with a proposition...It's just some people regard it as harassment and others the beginning of something more. But generally, the behavior is just the same. There's many who complain about harassment that are in relationships/marriages with men who propositioned them in the first place.