Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Discuss the problems that can occur in relationships with differing cultures and help overcome any barriers that exist.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

Jerseystar wrote:It is also possible clearance through the Department of Registration of marriage in Egypt - Cairo. If this is the case you then would have a registration number, would that then mean the uk goverment will recongise these marriages as they do not at the present time from what i have been told. I still find this subject confessing i hate to say i looked uo the subject on many sites too, not clear at all and peoples views are all different, to me all marriages are contracts be it in any country any faith or non faith, its alegal document if witness are called for and sign a document. Egypt needs to clear up this issue on marriages. I think what most women want to is protection like it is in the uk property rights, right over money assets and inhertiance rights.
I suspect 90% of marriages are not registered in Cairo.

As I understand it, :sd If the man is previously married and it is shown on his identity card the marriage will not be recognized by the UK Embassy hence you register in the Egyptian Court.

(To be honest most of the Orfi contracts are not legal (the white paper) OK some are they still obtained the Green paper from them which allows you to stay with the man. and if your looking for protection stop there :!: especially if you purchase property etc.) If you register the marriage in Cairo your possessions and self are subject to Sharia law :o )

You are at a disadvantage, he may refuse you travel, take other wives, take property not given in a gift or was yours prior to marriage, move you out of the matrimonial home etc... there are restrictions along with these guidelines beware. Most contracts are thrashed out between the elders of the family, it will just be you at the Court :sd and then what if you have children :?:

Anyone who has a more detailed knowledge jump in :roll:


With regards to English law unless you have a properly drawn Pre-Nuptial which is only just being recognised and if you have kids can be blown out of the water you have no protection to ring fence inheritance, assets previously owned etc.... Women with money 'live in sin'


It is what it is.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by LivinginLuxor »

I would genuinely like to see the government make the Orfi marriage only for Egyptian nationals! Unfortunately that would be yet another blow to tourism in Luxor.
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
Stan

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by carrie »

I doubt it Stan, I think most of the "boys" prefer the court papers now, after all there is much more money to be made that way. We have to pay for the lawyer darling, we have to pay for the court darling.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Scottishtourist »

Jerseystar wrote:It is also possible clearance through the Department of Registration of marriage in Egypt - Cairo. If this is the case you then would have a registration number, would that then mean the uk goverment will recongise these marriages as they do not at the present time from what i have been told. I still find this subject confessing i hate to say i looked uo the subject on many sites too, not clear at all and peoples views are all different, to me all marriages are contracts be it in any country any faith or non faith, its alegal document if witness are called for and sign a document. Egypt needs to clear up this issue on marriages. I think what most women want to is protection like it is in the uk property rights, right over money assets and inhertiance rights.
I'm with you on this Jerseystar.
Sorry,it's taken me a little time to digest the info,but I find it all very confusing too!
What's the difference between a "green paper" and a "white paper?"(sounds like we're discussing "Rizla"fag papers!)
Does one colour paper go through various channels(courts,etc.) and then change colour ,thus affording more rights to the woman?
Or are they different documents according to the "specific"needs of either party?
I personally think DSaxelby has done no wrong in bringing topic up again.
What surprises me is the fact that there are probably many on the forum who have gone through one "marriage"ceremony or another with an Egyptian national,yet stay schtuuum,when this topic is brought up!They are the very women who could offer advice to others,but choose not to. Why?
What kind of "marriage"do the "older"women have?The ones not now of child-bearing age?
I wouldn't condemn anyone who wants to sign some kind of contract with an Egyptian to enable them to spend some "fun"time with them.But clarity is needed,and I think this is what DSaxelby has endeavoured to show everyone by posting on the topic.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by HEPZIBAH »

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Who2 »

It's time for our company 'Getmarrieddeadquick.com to reveal............
That we will happily organise your day of happiness, we have a sheik, a tomb, a fullucca, chicken supper, Orfis a speciality and discounst for 'cripples. scrub that! 'disabled persons, scrub that! 'handicapped folks!, anyhow it's a good day out you get married dead quick and we chuck in a free band and pay bar. 250le money upfront Ahmed manager of getmarrieddeadquick.com™ pending
Added Attraction Luxor Vicinity Only upon written request:
We have a state registered Elvis Presley pastor/mufti impersonator that can officiate any any given service, quotations upon applications....:cool:
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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by HEPZIBAH »

One quick search using the key words 'Orfi Marriage' will bring up countless references that has covered this subject over the years in the Intercultural Relationships section alone. There are 4 pages (although it is possible not all the topics are strictly Orfi). I have no inclination to search through each post but the link I give will give a list of many, but by no means all, the relative or related posts. It is a subject that has been discussed ever since the Luxor4U forum began. Some posts are written from the posters personal experience, others are from hearsay, others from research - or a combination. Some will be more factual than others.

search.php?keywords=Orfi+Marriage&terms ... mit=Search

I personally have not found the posts in this thread any particular help in clarifying the whole, muddy, subject of orfi. If anything it has just helped to confuse me further.

As for why any women, of any age or ability to provide children, chooses or complies to one 'method' of marriage over another is possibly a subject in it's own right - but in reality it's not the business of anyone else except the couple (and the law).
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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

Ok the white paper is the actual contract which should be witnessed and signed by 2 men (or 4 women) apparently in front of a lawyer. This is the usual contract that is not normally accepted at respectable establishments. From this document a green document totally in Arabic is produced, you get the white contract back stamped and a green one, the green one is what's used at hotels this is also stamped and looks official. Stop here if it is your bonking document. (You will get a green one back even if the white one is incorrectly completed, warning bells should be ringing if this happens) 8)

Essentially I gather :? this is called a civil marriage but not a legal marriage! This is where the man convinces women that they are married and sharia law applies! It does not to legalise the marriage you have to (I understand)go to Cairo!

He can have 100's of these green papers and usually does, officially he can only take 4 wives and the rules governing that part are a whole new subject.

Where do you stand if you have completed the formalities correctly and have a civil marriage :?:
It is what it is.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

What surprises me is the fact that there are probably many on the forum who have gone through one "marriage"ceremony or another with an Egyptian national,yet stay schtuuum,when this topic is brought up!They are the very women who could offer advice to others,but choose not to. Why?
What kind of "marriage"do the "older"women have?The ones not now of child-bearing age?
I wouldn't condemn anyone who wants to sign some kind of contract with an Egyptian to enable them to spend some "fun"time with them.But clarity is needed,and I think this is what DSaxelby has endeavoured to show everyone by posting on the topic.[/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking ST, we are not talking about locals and age old contracts but how the definition has been manipulated for tourists!

Believe me if you did not have to sign a contract to see a man, many would not!

The forum on this subject has been helpful and supportive as ever! and what do I know bits and bobs picked up from forums, a lawyer and the visa lady :lol:

So please if the information is clearly available please provide it :?:
It is what it is.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Scottishtourist »

Ok,Ds,hypothetical question!
I go to Luxor for a holiday,meet a nice man and want to spend time with him, sleep with him.
That's a big NO,NO,right...cos even though I don't have partner or any legal commitments in UK..he's Egyptian and could go to jail if he's found to be in relationship with me.
I just want a "good"time on holiday.I don't want him having any specific rights over my property or pension.I just want to have a boyfriend,protector and companion(to avoid any hassle) on the holiday.He's younger than me,handsome,and I'm flattered by the attention...so what the hell...I got nothing to lose!
Pregnancy and children are NOT an option!
I also don't want him having any rights over me and prohibiting me from meeting someone and establishing a relationship with that person in my home country.
So...what's the paper for me?
White,green,tartan?
Or would that be asking too much?Do we really have to forfeit some rights and declare our undying love?
Can we tear up (whatever)paper after two weeks and just go back to our normal lives,lol?

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

Scottishtourist wrote:Ok,Ds,hypothetical question!
I go to Luxor for a holiday,meet a nice man and want to spend time with him, sleep with him.
That's a big NO,NO,right...cos even though I don't have partner or any legal commitments in UK..he's Egyptian and could go to jail if he's found to be in relationship with me.
I just want a "good"time on holiday.I don't want him having any specific rights over my property or pension.I just want to have a boyfriend,protector and companion(to avoid any hassle) on the holiday.He's younger than me,handsome,and I'm flattered by the attention...so what the hell...I got nothing to lose!
Pregnancy and children are NOT an option!
I also don't want him having any rights over me and prohibiting me from meeting someone and establishing a relationship with that person in my home country.
So...what's the paper for me?
White,green,tartan?
Or would that be asking too much?Do we really have to forfeit some rights and declare our undying love?
Can we tear up (whatever)paper after two weeks and just go back to our normal lives,lol?
:lol: tartan

ST I am the newbie but would suggest the following points:

1. Presumably you have met your beloved :?: and if married has already told you about the circumcision issue, do not feel sorry for him what he is essentially saying to you is that he has never pleasured a woman and has no idea how to.
2. he can get a copy of your passport from the hotel you stayed at and produce and civil marriage without you even being there. Be warned these cost pennies probably a little more for the fact of your absence but no more than £100.
3. If he is prepared to await your return and takes you to the bar where 2 dubious looking men are prepared to witness the pre-printed contract, make sure they both sign the document and add their ID (not sure how this affects the legitimacy of the white contract, not being in front of a lawyer). Actually say nothing if only one signs and this is just a bonking holiday, ignore also the clause stating he has no other wives.
4. Do not accept the dowry of LE50 Egyptian (important for later).
5. The white document will disappear and a few days later re appear with 2 stamps on it (completed properly of not) along with a green paper the only English will be your surname and passport number. (Ignore the mis spelling of your surname and incorrect copying of your passport). official looking equally stamped. Good enough for hotels!
6. The green paper apparently states when you should attend at the court (have no further information on this as yet).
You have a civil marriage :)
You go home never intend to return rip it up.

However, if the documents have both been completed correctly and you wish to return to Egypt to a new man you may well have a problem (awaiting clarification on this).

This is the grey area to which I am seeking clarification.
However, if he has not paid a dowry he can not move you to a new abode, also if he is dishonest or violent you do not have to move, and again if it means leaving your family and friends you do not need to relocate. In practice not sure how this works out.

I understand he can have demand sex and no one will stop him, he can hit you but not your face or important areas i.e the heart, etc. again in practice from what I hear this is not abided to.

I have recently understood the orfi does not establish property rights, but once legalized he can sell your property ( not gifted or previously owned) and relocate you.

To divorce him or essentially be released from your correctly completed orfi you need grounds, he did not support you etc... not seeing them for 6 months will do, getting out of it can be a headache and if you see another man while you have this orfi you can go to prison. (I think).

Or do not return and rip it up :)
It is what it is.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Scottishtourist »

Jeeez oh,DS!
That's even more complicated than being married in Catholic church!
Passports,dowries,sex on demand,circumcision.... and beatings?
Think I'll give it a miss and look for good Catholic boy here!
Always encouraged my son to bring his friends home,secretly hoping one would have crush on his old ma!!!
Think going "clandestine"in Luxor is only way,lol!!!
Never mind,when Scotland has independance...we'll have OUR own rules!

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Who2 »

Oh! God this is turning into an agony aunts page, 'you don't have to reveal all, we know! it's part of Luxor's varied and colourful history, when in doubt call...... getmarrieddeadquick.com a company you can trust!
"Bits of paper ? 'we've got lots of bits of paper...:cool:
toones: http://youtu.be/OVOI3HdiqNM
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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Goddess »

:urm:
Right. Well.
Image

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Maakari »

I have been veiwing this post, and as Hepzibah has said it is a long running interest on this forum.
I am a bit bedazzled by all the legal Jargon!!!!!!!! (A bit thick ), but as I have said before..................... "you make your choice............etc"!
I could come on here and tell you all about what colour my "paper " is (rainbow hues with a touch of magenta spots)I could tell you all about the details of our relationship, I could tell you all about our money situation, I could tell you all about our living arrangement............................But, even if you are a "Newbie" It has NO bearing on anothers situation.
As long as I am sure of my decisions, I am a big girl (very!) I will do what I would do in any country, know what I am doing is right for ME.
If others find that of any help, so be it.
Those who are being taken for a ride (and a house/business/money/visa etc) are to pitied, But this could happen in any country, and is down to the individuals own sense of what is right and what is wrong. Pick wisely, be Savvy, if this is a proper relationship, and you feel it is as it should be, then so be it.
This wil always be a strong topic. It is not a Nice topic, but it has always happened here, as in other countries, and no matter how much other people view it as wrong...It will continue. You will never (almost )change someones opinion on what they should do in any relationship (Think shoot the messenger), You can offer hints, clues, even hard evidence why these women should not enter into marriages with Egyptian men, legal and human compassion input wil not sway their minds
You just have to accept it is one of lifes little dramas being played out, and there but the grace of God, go I, could be any one of us.It is not of concern to us, we might not like it happening, But it is none of our business, That sounds harsh, but I, for one, do not interfere or want to know the details of someones marital staus, I do not do it with any one I know in my circle of people I know, and certainly do not want to know strangers particulars of their personal life with their spouses! Life (and marriage) is not a guaranteed smooth ride (oh that it was) We are given this life, so use it and live as best you can.........You are a long time dead!

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Scottishtourist »

Hi Maakari.
As I've said, I don't condemn anyone entering into any kind of contract with an Egyptian for whatever reason,be it merely for a good time on holiday or a more lasting commitment.
Question that puzzles me though is, are these contracts still REALLY needed between Egyptians and tourists,if all someone wants is to meet up with an old friend and spend some time with them 2/3 times per year ?
I can go to a coffee shop with an Egyptian friend(male)I can go on felucca with him,can go and visit his family,can go shopping,can go out with him for an evening,can walk in the street with him.
No-one has ever stopped us and asked what the "relationship"is.
Have I just been "lucky" that no-one has ever questioned it?
Or would it be a different matter entirely if I wanted to spend the night with him in an apartment?
What happens if one evening I don't get deposited back at my hotel?
Who's gonna tell the authorities? And are they REALLY so interested?(as you say,we're all big girls.)
Is there any monetary gain to be had in "shopping"someone to the Tourist Police?They seem indifferent about everything else,so why bother with this.
Or is it just maybe a case that some (narrow minded)people in Luxor take pleasure in bringing about misfortune for others?

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Maakari »

Hi ST.
Like I said I am not sure on the legal ramification of couple meeting up in apartments for a bonk!
A few years ago, if you were with an egyptian , say on the Corniche, walking, partaking of a coffe, getting in Fellucca with them, you would most likely to have been asked by police (or the egyptian would have been) who is this, why are you here, show us your ID, where is this lady staying? all those types of questions!
It has all changed now I think, as you said the police can not be bothered to get off their A#8sses to do anything, let alone interrogate Anglo/egyptian couples!
All I think on that matter is, Egypt is a Predominately Muslim country, It has its laws and its morality rules, I don't know the exact in and outs of all these. But I know, if I went to Dubai, for example, I could Quaff a bottleof wine walking down the street in a bikini (ha ha), I might get away with it for a few times, but as tourists have found out, to their huge cost, if you are found to be doing something against that countries cultural and moral beliefs, you wil be punished.
I supoose the men here still fear being found in apartment with Foreign woman with out being married to her, so the Green/white/cerise/dotty/striped piece of paper ensures them a guilt free rumpy Pumpy!
But as I said, any ones Marital bliss, or otherwise, is really not down to me. But I think people like to see these "marriages" floundering when money/property/wellbeing issues are known. Bit like gawking at RTAs, not nice to see, ut HEY! It Ain't happening to me, lets just watch.
Have a good sunday! Enjoy your time away from the joys of urinals and feacal matter, as I am!

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

They stopped my friend in February 2013 at most of the tourists sights and wanted to see their paper. She was alone with her Egyptian husband.
It is what it is.

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by Scottishtourist »

dsaxelby wrote:They stopped my friend in February 2013 at most of the tourists sights and wanted to see their paper. She was alone with her Egyptian husband.
Seems I've just been lucky then Ds.
In the past I've gone to the tourist sights with a "guide."Friend of a friend type thing.We've then gone for lunch and even gone out for the evening.
As I recall,he never had to show any papers (marriage contracts or guide papers)
Do they know the legit "guides"at the tourist sights,and thus was the reason we were never questioned?

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Re: Clarity - Orfi (Civil marriage) for newbies

Post by dsaxelby »

Scottishtourist wrote:
dsaxelby wrote:They stopped my friend in February 2013 at most of the tourists sights and wanted to see their paper. She was alone with her Egyptian husband.
Seems I've just been lucky then Ds.
In the past I've gone to the tourist sights with a "guide."Friend of a friend type thing.We've then gone for lunch and even gone out for the evening.
As I recall,he never had to show any papers (marriage contracts or guide papers)
Do they know the legit "guides"at the tourist sights,and thus was the reason we were never questioned?

Probably ST from what I understand they are well aware of who the gigolo's are, and also my friend is touchy feely so she probably kept grabbing him or held his arm sort of thing.
It is what it is.

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