Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Discuss the problems that can occur in relationships with differing cultures and help overcome any barriers that exist.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

Zooropa wrote:Education is where you are given the facts, and pay careful attention to the word facts - that means provable bits of information not faith based beliefs, which you then use to reach your own conclusions.

Indoctrination is where you are told something not provable or verifiable as a fact.

A good example of this was in Japan, where every child from the moment it could comprehend was told that the only reason for their being was to be in the service of the emperor - nothing else mattered and to die in his service was not only expected but also a honour to do so and that surrender was the worst thing you could ever contemplate let alone actually do.

Tell a young child something often and forceful enough and they will believe it.

That's why only a few Japanese soldiers surrendered on each of the islands that the allies attacked.

Do you think that if they had been taught that before they picked up a gun or thought about killing themselves that the best thing to do first would be to evaluate the merit of doing so before reaching a decision that all but a few would have weighed up the pros and cons before deciding to die?

Put a little more simply -

Education - The supply of tools in order for you to decide for yourself.

Indoctrination - Cuts out the middle man and saves you the bother of having to decide.

No - and that's the difference between indoctrination and education.

The only reason religion has survived is because of indoctrination, if it was just education religion would have long since been the preverbal do do.



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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Robbo70 »

I hug a rottie every morning. Its more sqidgy and calming than a tree :D
I am not decrying your beliefs although a little respect for my lack of belief would be a nice polite way to go? I guess I have read all the holy books to try and understand the various beliefs and teachings. I may not believe them but im doing no harm trying to understand them
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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Scottishtourist »

Robbo70 wrote:I hug a rottie every morning. Its more sqidgy and calming than a tree :D
I am not decrying your beliefs although a little respect for my lack of belief would be a nice polite way to go? I guess I have read all the holy books to try and understand the various beliefs and teachings. I may not believe them but im doing no harm trying to understand them
But why are you even reading them Robbo?
Are you looking for answers?
Are you searching for something to believe in?Something that will correspond with your views on life?

Then you see that there is nothing,cos your specific beliefs do not fit into any category of religion?
Well.fair enough..you don't have to justify your thoughts and opinions to anyone..least of all ME.

Respect is a two way street...you have intimated that you have no problem with my beliefs..so I will re-iterate that I have no problems with yours.x

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by newcastle »

Scottishtourist wrote:P.s..why are all you Atheists reading the bible?

And Z,special question for you!Who's Darwin?lol! x
I don't imagine many of us (atheists) read it now....but it's content is hard to escape if you've had a UK school education, secular or religious.

And on one level it's interesting....as one explanation of how the universe & all of us came to be. And it suited our need to know these things (a unique, apparently, trait of our species). Then along came science and debunked most of it. Few christians now regard it as a literal account.

The Qur'an is rather different, much more difficult for a non-Arabic speaker to follow, and whilst its narrative obviously owes something to earlier judaic and christian narratives, it also differs in important respects.

Most importantly, for muslims, it is considered to be, literally, the words of God.

Why would I, an atheist, be interested in any of this? Simply because I have an enquiring mind. Writings which have effected the progress of humanity so dramatically over the last 3000 plus years deserve some acknowledgement!

As to Charles Darwin....methinks you are pulling our leg ST. Surely :tk

For me, the whole subject of how we think & act is of great interest and religion plays a huge role in this. Less. I think, than in earlier centuries (when atheism was almost unknown), but it's undeniable that the majority of our species believes in a deity of one sort or another...even those who are not in any way "religious".

But of course belief in something, even if it's total, doesn't constitute proof ! Occasionally I hear "well...so many believe in God etc....they can't all be wrong". Well.....of course they can! Much of the western world believed the earth was flat and the sun orbited about us not so many centuries ago.

Despite my interest in religious thinking, it's never an easy topic to discuss (as this thread clearly demonstrates) without one side or the other, or both, losing the plot...literally & figuratively. If my language sometimes transgresses the norms of politeness I can only say....it's by no means unique to my debates on religion!

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Robbo70 »

Scottishtourist wrote:
Robbo70 wrote:I hug a rottie every morning. Its more sqidgy and calming than a tree :D
I am not decrying your beliefs although a little respect for my lack of belief would be a nice polite way to go? I guess I have read all the holy books to try and understand the various beliefs and teachings. I may not believe them but im doing no harm trying to understand them
But why are you even reading them Robbo?
Are you looking for answers?
Are you searching for something to believe in?Something that will correspond with your views on life?

Then you see that there is nothing,cos your specific beliefs do not fit into any category of religion?
Well.fair enough..you don't have to justify your thoughts and opinions to anyone..least of all ME.

Respect is a two way street...you have intimated that you have no problem with my beliefs..so I will re-iterate that I have no problems with yours.x
No I don't have to justify my feelings or beleifs to anyone, but I am happy to try and explain them. Why least of all YOU? You are a forum member having a discussion and I have to problem with that so Im all yours to try and answer.

Like the vast majority of school pupils, I had no choice in studying religion. I went to a church of England school and we even had our own chapel and chaplain. We were taught mostly the bible, but did have visiting priests, rabbis etc come in to talk about their beleifs too. I had questions, but questioning the bible was a no go. I tried to ask my vicar at church but was brushed off. My argument was that if there was a god, who gave us a brain, where we not at liberty to broaden its abilities by asking questions. Apparently, why Jesus died on the cross and decended into hell was not as issue. On the third day he rose again.. why did he have to do a stint in hell? I didn't think it was a profound question, but the attitude towards me for asking made me question things. Was I just supposed to accept the teachings of this holy book without reason?

Then I found a great interest in evolution, and dinosaurs and other amazing creatures that walked this planet 65 million years ago. I got a detention for suggesting that given scientific findings, perhaps this God we were told about, created the earth and all things on it, in 7 millennia rather than 7 days. Bad move Di, and a painfull one with a ruler across my knuckles :lol: Thankfully, we got a visiting young catholic priest who agreed with me that wording such as 7 days, or 40 days and 40 nights were a kind of example for 'a long time' rather than specific times. I still wonder how close he came to detention too!

Anyhow, rather than ramble on with a whole more examples, I was still inquisitive to see what other religions were teaching, and so borrowed a Torra off a jewish friend, chatted to some of the Indian and Pakistan girls at school about their religion and learned a lot. Strangely, no matter which religion I learned about, they all came down to teaching right from wrong by using fear and terror of their versions of Hell. Do we need fear to determine what is wrong? Do you ST fear purgatory or deal with the much ridiculed catholic guilt?

I decided at 15 that this one guy creating everything was just a bit too much. This guy was letting people starve in parts of the world, kill each other in other parts of the world, and I just couldn't go with a compassionate god allowing all of that. I gave up, or rather point blank refused to go back into a church, and have only ever been in for a hatch, match or dispatch since. Ive also been in several cathedrals round the UK because Omar has a bit of a fascination with them

Since then... I understand what is right and wrong, I try to treat people how I want to be treated. I am here, alive and well, and when I die, I will fertilize a little bit of ground for a new life to begin. I don't need faith or belief in one God to live a full and happy life. I have total respect for those that do. I just like to live and let live. Ramble over :)
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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

We shouldn't make too much light of Darwin, he may be the anti Christ to some religious people but he was the first modern biologist.

Much good has come from what he started.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

Scottishtourist wrote:So once again I reiterate, newcastle.

Christianity and Catholicism are the softer targets!
You feel comfortable labelling it as "indoctrination"and "hogwash"

But you ain't got the guts to speak about Islam in the same way?Because you accept the rules,culture and religion of the country you are living in!

Well..stop having a go at the Catholic Church!
You may disagree with it's teachings..but who has ever heard of a "radical"Catholic?

You may proclaim "live and let live"...so stop narking and let me follow my peaceful religion..whether you agree with it or not!
Yet another example of someone who knows nothing of their history.

Go read a history book sometime.

Your "lot" has just as much blood on its hands.

How many times have you heard of a paedophile Muslim?

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Yildez »

Zooropa wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:So once again I reiterate, newcastle.

Christianity and Catholicism are the softer targets!
You feel comfortable labelling it as "indoctrination"and "hogwash"

But you ain't got the guts to speak about Islam in the same way?Because you accept the rules,culture and religion of the country you are living in!

Well..stop having a go at the Catholic Church!
You may disagree with it's teachings..but who has ever heard of a "radical"Catholic?

You may proclaim "live and let live"...so stop narking and let me follow my peaceful religion..whether you agree with it or not!
Yet another example of someone who knows nothing of their history.

Go read a history book sometime.

Your "lot" has just as much blood on its hands.

How many times have you heard of a paedophile Muslim?
Sorry Zooropa, sadly they are alive and kicking, just don't make the news like they do in Europe. Here in Turkey, they are often dealt with by locals, and I guess that may well be the case in Egypt too.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

Yildez wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:So once again I reiterate, newcastle.

Christianity and Catholicism are the softer targets!
You feel comfortable labelling it as "indoctrination"and "hogwash"

But you ain't got the guts to speak about Islam in the same way?Because you accept the rules,culture and religion of the country you are living in!

Well..stop having a go at the Catholic Church!
You may disagree with it's teachings..but who has ever heard of a "radical"Catholic?

You may proclaim "live and let live"...so stop narking and let me follow my peaceful religion..whether you agree with it or not!
Yet another example of someone who knows nothing of their history.

Go read a history book sometime.

Your "lot" has just as much blood on its hands.

How many times have you heard of a paedophile Muslim?
Sorry Zooropa, sadly they are alive and kicking, just don't make the news like they do in Europe. Here in Turkey, they are often dealt with by locals, and I guess that may well be the case in Egypt too.
Sorry, I should have been clearer, im not referring to Muslim's but the Muslim church, of course there are Muslim paedophile's, we have a serious problem with Muslim paedophile rings in the UK at the moment which the government appear to be too frightened to address.

I have not heard any evidence that the Islamic church is riddled with paedophiles as the Catholic church is.

Im sure if there are/were, it would be "dealt" with internally, not allowed to continue, at least I hope it wouldn't!

That's the point I was trying to make.

Sorry, it was first thing in the morning whilst the kettle was on - hadn't had my tea fix! :?

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Dusak »

ST said- Well..stop having a go at the Catholic Church!
You may disagree with it's teachings..but who has ever heard of a "radical"Catholic?


The Bad Popes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bad Popes is a 1969 book by E. R. Chamberlin documenting the lives of eight of the most controversial popes (papal years in parentheses):

Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

And those that teach from high, will be listened too intently by those seated below them. Dusak-2014.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:
Scottishtourist wrote:
carrie wrote:ST I hope you don't think I have called you immature, evil or anything else, I profoundly disagree with your views and whatever the arguments you put up will continue to do so. I could debate with you till the sun fails to shine neither of us would change our stance. Let us two at least agree to disagree.
Oh Carrie!
Believe me when I say that I would never take offence or fall out with anyone who disagrees with me.

I just find it a bit sad really that people can abandon their faith or call on others to do so just because they have had a "bad"experience with it along the way.

The one thing I notice on reading the forum though,is that no-one ever calls on Muslims to abandon Islam because they disagree with the horrors being perpetrated by groups such as ISIL,Boko Haram,etc.

How many Muslims have given up on their faith due to the actions of these so-called "believers?"
I'd think there are very few.
Cos,they too look at the bigger picture and realise their faith is centred on their GOD...and not on the actions of people who abuse others in HIS name.

Is Christianity and Catholicism in particular just a softer target to criticize and condemn?
There's a very good reason why you won't hear people calling on muslims to abandon islam (apart from the general futility). Such behaviour carries a very high criminal penalty under the laws of Egypt !

In some islamic states it will get you executed.

I believe there are similar laws regarding the coptic faith but can't be bothered to look them up.
I understand where you are coming from but its mealy mouthed still.

Right is right and wrong is wrong.

As a scientist or a mathematician would say,(like my old mathematician teacher said when I said to him the answer I gave was nearly right) there are no degrees of right or wrong it either is or it isn't.

Soft target or not it still makes it undefendable.

There are plenty of people having ago at Islam, some specialise in it.

Have a look on You Tube for Christopher Hitchens and Pat Condell both don't pull their punches when it comes to Islam, especially Condell.

Worth a watch.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by newcastle »

I entirely agree Zooropa. Call me mealy-mouthed....oh...you did :lol:

The late Christopher Hitchens is another of my "heroes".

But foreigners who LIVE in Egypt are wise to keep shtum ....if they wish to continue living here :lol:

It's not an issue I'm prepared to be martyred for.....wimp that I am.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:I entirely agree Zooropa. Call me mealy-mouthed....oh...you did :lol:

The late Christopher Hitchens is another of my "heroes".

But foreigners who LIVE in Egypt are wise to keep shtum ....if they wish to continue living here :lol:

It's not an issue I'm prepared to be martyred for.....wimp that I am.
Sorry Newcastle, my bad, meant to use the original quote from ST, it was her I was calling mealy mouthed, sorry!

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Dusak »

Darn it, I thought it was me. I had already removed your name from my Christmas card list. :lol:
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Angelat211 »

When I lived in Luxor I was told to keep quiet about my beliefs or non- beliefs I should say or I might be killed!!
it's inadvisable to discuss religion openly, I would say in any Mulim country.
As a PS there were atheists in the middle-ages but similarly in Muslim countries tody they kept quiet. I think one or two kings/queens forced you to go to church. ELizabeth 1st did, not sure about others.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by newcastle »

Angelat211 wrote:When I lived in Luxor I was told to keep quiet about my beliefs or non- beliefs I should say or I might be killed!!
it's inadvisable to discuss religion openly, I would say in any Mulim country.
As a PS there were atheists in the middle-ages but similarly in Muslim countries tody they kept quiet. I think one or two kings/queens forced you to go to church. ELizabeth 1st did, not sure about others.
I don't know when you lived in Luxor Angela....but I'm sure nothing much has changed on that front.

Atheism is certainly not a topic for open discussion and although my family are aware of my non-belief I suspect they find it as unintelligible as I find their beliefs. Religion is not a subject we broach.

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

Angelat211 wrote:When I lived in Luxor I was told to keep quiet about my beliefs or non- beliefs I should say or I might be killed!!
it's inadvisable to discuss religion openly, I would say in any Mulim country.
As a PS there were atheists in the middle-ages but similarly in Muslim countries tody they kept quiet. I think one or two kings/queens forced you to go to church. ELizabeth 1st did, not sure about others.
I don't understand, the religions of Islam & Christianity all preach tolerance and respect.

Surely you would have been safe?

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by newcastle »

Zooropa wrote:
Angelat211 wrote:When I lived in Luxor I was told to keep quiet about my beliefs or non- beliefs I should say or I might be killed!!
it's inadvisable to discuss religion openly, I would say in any Mulim country.
As a PS there were atheists in the middle-ages but similarly in Muslim countries tody they kept quiet. I think one or two kings/queens forced you to go to church. ELizabeth 1st did, not sure about others.
I don't understand, the religions of Islam & Christianity all preach tolerance and respect.

Surely you would have been safe?
I'm not sure I'd care to test the theory against the practice :urm:

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by Zooropa »

newcastle wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
Angelat211 wrote:When I lived in Luxor I was told to keep quiet about my beliefs or non- beliefs I should say or I might be killed!!
it's inadvisable to discuss religion openly, I would say in any Mulim country.
As a PS there were atheists in the middle-ages but similarly in Muslim countries tody they kept quiet. I think one or two kings/queens forced you to go to church. ELizabeth 1st did, not sure about others.
I don't understand, the religions of Islam & Christianity all preach tolerance and respect.

Surely you would have been safe?
I'm not sure I'd care to test the theory against the practice :urm:
Well quite, I hope the heavy scent of irony I was using could be smelt?

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Re: Egypt: The forbidden love of interfaith romances

Post by newcastle »

Indeed it could Zooropa :)

Apparently my own efforts at being ironic - or should that be facetious - appear to be going unremarked elsewhere :(

(See Frater & his search for his roots).

You can't win 'em all :lol:

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