Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificates

Discuss the problems that can occur in relationships with differing cultures and help overcome any barriers that exist.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Winged Isis
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3840
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 1566 times
Been thanked: 1012 times
Gender:
Australia

Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificates

Post by Winged Isis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:30 pm

CAIROSCENE TEAM

24/04/2017 19:04

Children born to customary (Urfi) marriages can now be officially registered and issued a birth certificate, an administrative court ruled on Sunday. State-owned Egynews reported that employees of the Civil Status Authority are now required to register children born into customary marriages. This guarantees the children’s legal rights, such as access to health and education services, as well as inheritance.

The ruling comes after one mother filed a lawsuit claiming that employees of the national registry were not implementing previous rulings allowing children born to customary marriages to obtain birth certificates.

Urfi, or customary marriages, are a form of marriage whereby the couple signs a document stating they are married in the presence of two witnesses. The difference between customary and legal marriages is that customary marriages are not registered with the state. Although customary marriages are considered compliant with Sharia law, they are still viewed as highly taboo in Egypt, and children born as a result of these marriages are often viewed as children born out wedlock.


Carpe diem! :le:

User avatar
carrie
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4328
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:46 am
Location: luxor
Has thanked: 2778 times
Been thanked: 5362 times
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by carrie » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:22 pm

Sorry WI I have to disagree the Orfi marriage is not seen as taboo, many took place in the past especially in the smaller villages in Upper Egypt. The couple involved were seen by their neighbours and family as legally married.

newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 2029 times
Been thanked: 5928 times
Egypt

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by newcastle » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am

WI is only posting, verbatim, the Cairo Scene article.

Sexual matters generally are a taboo subject for discussion in Egypt but it is probably overstating the point to say, or imply, that Orfi marriages themselves are taboo. As Carrie says, they are not uncommon, particularly in Upper Egypt where, apart from relieving the couple of the financial burdens of a conventional marriage, they facilitate underage marriages which might otherwise be impossible under the State system.

There is definitely a stigma attached to Orfi marriages in the eyes of many Egyptians...that the law concerning birth certificates is only now being addressed is a clear example of the lower status attaching to Orfi marriages.

Amongst some, they carry overtones of loose morals, 'holiday marriages' of convenience, 'bezness' relationships (where the women is a foreigner) etc.

Many hotels still refuse entry to Orfi couples.

The Egyptian attitude to Orfi very much depends on which Egyptian you ask!

User avatar
Winged Isis
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 3840
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 1566 times
Been thanked: 1012 times
Gender:
Australia

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Winged Isis » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:57 am

"WI is only posting, verbatim, the Cairo Scene article." Yes, carrie, newcastle is correct, but no offence taken.

I agree with his and your views, not the article's, on attitudes: "The Egyptian attitude to Orfi very much depends on which Egyptian you ask!"
Carpe diem! :le:

Sleepy Head
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:24 pm
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 6 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Sleepy Head » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:00 am

Unregistered children get nothing from the state, not even an education or health care, and it can lead to miserable lives as adults. Children from orfi marriages were seldom if ever registered regardless of whether the neighbours accepted them or not as the State did not accept them.

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:20 pm

Just out of interest what health care are children entitled to paid for by the state. I know a family where one one the children has diabetes, and has regular insulin injections. They told me how much it cost (can't remember what they said , as I sort of take figures with a pinch of salt, as they all want you to support them).

Is everything free up to a certain age? Or is treatment free, and you pay for medicines?

Schooling is I believe free, but up to what age? What about when they go to university? Just would like an insight really .

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Dusak » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:42 am

All my friends nephews and nieces have to pay the school around 60Le per term. Every time one of them needs to go to any doctor, regardless of age, they have to pay for treatment and medication. This includes the standard 50Le to pay before they get through the surgery door. When most babies are born the parents take out medical insurance. One of her nieces, now nearly one, was born with a serious heart complaint. They had to go and rent a flat in Aswan, pay for each liter of blood the child required, medication and so forth. Their insurance only covered the grater part of the treatment costs, they having to find around 7,000Le in total. The child has to go back on the 9th of next month to have another kind of valve fitted to the heart, again, only a certain amount will be covered by their insurance. For the first heart operation the blood required was so high, over a two month period, that the father was literally begging strangers in the street outside the hospital for donors willing to have a blood test to see if it was compatible. Many volunteered, but sadly non suited, so it cost them 185Le per liter. The number of babies born with such heart conditions is quite high in Egypt.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

User avatar
carrie
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 4328
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:46 am
Location: luxor
Has thanked: 2778 times
Been thanked: 5362 times
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by carrie » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:11 pm

I thought that El Sisi had done away with school fees now Dusak, not that it does any good you have to pay for private lessons to learn anything. A friend and I were discussing his little boy and I asked which school he would be attending when he got older (my friend is a teacher by the way and a Muslim) he said the Coptic school. Why? Although the class size often reaches 70, I asked how could a child learn in an environment like that, he told me that he didn't think the child could but that the teachers were the best in Luxor and if they didn't attend that school then there was no chance you could get your kids into private lessons with them.
Yes free schooling but an education costs.

newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 2029 times
Been thanked: 5928 times
Egypt

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by newcastle » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:54 pm

Free (or virtually free) medical attention is available at Public hospitals to any Egyptian but with the important caveat :

The Public hospitals are under-funded, under-staffed, generally unclean, often devoid of essential equipment and low on even common drugs. Waiting times to be seen , or dealt with, can be lengthy.

Very much a last resort.

Likewise, education is free at all levels in state schools. There are even free state universities.

Again, the quality of equipment, books and, most importantly, teaching falls well short of western standards. Many parents opt for private tutoring or fee-paying private schools if they can afford them.

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:34 pm

Thank you, makes interesting reading. I too know a Muslim family that send their child to a Coptic school, and I thought it strange. They too claimed the education was superior.

Diabetes must cause many early deaths in Egypt, as people think they are fine, but those high sugar levels must be causing havoc internally. Again, met a man who asked me for some cream for his toe, which was all wrapped up and manky. I told him to go to the doctors , but he said he couldn't afford it. He said he suffered from 'sugar'.

I know in the UK they say it's an enormous problem and are trying to educate people to cut out as much sugar as possible in the diet. The costs to the NHS, treating this condition are huge.

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:53 pm

Funnily enough have just read an article about how parents are turning to the black market as they can't afford to pay for insulin as the price has risen so much in recent years. It also stated about the insurance, and how it doesn't cover all costs. Dusak, do they have to continue to pay yearly for this insurance taken out at birth?

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Dusak » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:01 am

I know nothing about the Coptic schools not charging, but asked my friend while reading this, she says that the children have paid for this term at a Muslim school.
Miss scarlett wrote:Funnily enough have just read an article about how parents are turning to the black market as they can't afford to pay for insulin as the price has risen so much in recent years. It also stated about the insurance, and how it doesn't cover all costs. Dusak, do they have to continue to pay yearly for this insurance taken out at birth?
I will have to ask about this as I never thought to ask. Ok, I've just phoned her. When the child is born they return to the birthing clinic/hospital for samples to be taken. Then the baby is issued with a medical insurance certificate that covers the child through the full period of education at a cost of a one off payment of 25Le. But, if the parents forget, or just can't afford the cost at that time and if they apply for it when the child is, say 3/5/8 years of age, then the cost is 160Le. She says most of the time the percentage they are required to pay usually out ways the benefit of having insurance. What is common practice she says is when it becomes evident that the child needs specialist treatment for a possible life endangering ailment, it is then the parents get the increased cost cover. Although this is illegal, many get the cover ''under the counter.'' The drugs the child may require are the cheapest available so if they want the better quality and more recognized brands, then then have to pay for these themselves. And usually, say in the example of heart problems like her niece, although usually carried out by international specialists in that particular field, they all take place in far flung area's like Aswan that produces more of a financier burden on them. Her brother was only supposed to stay in Aswan for three weeks the first visit, but ended up having to stay nearly three months due to complications and the non availability/shortage of the blood type required. Most local clinics only charge 1Le for a walk in diagnosis only, but she says they are very badly equipped and unhygienic. There is free treatment available for the very poor, but she says that it would probably be better to die than be reliant on what is on offer.

If and when they start work they can then pay for an adult insurance cover, but many don't bother because of the cost and difficulties in achieving any claim.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

newcastle
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7015
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:49 am
Has thanked: 2029 times
Been thanked: 5928 times
Egypt

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by newcastle » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:29 am

What Dusak says is about right.

There is a public health and education system in Egypt which is, more or less, free to anyone who needs/wishes to use it.

And it's worth every piastre they pay :urm:

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:38 am

Well at 25le I would imagine most parents take out that insurance . Thank you for your replies.

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Dusak » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:22 am

An interesting point is that her youngest niece returned home yesterday and asked for 3Le for class. When asked what was it for, she said her teacher had told them that they would paint a large picture along one wall showing the sea bottom. Then each pupil could paint what they thought would live there. But, the paints and brushes had to be paid for by each member of the class, so this worked out at 3Le each. It makes you wonder what happens if some can't afford this relatively small amount, do their kids not get to join in?
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:54 pm

I wonder what happens about the trips to ACE? Do they all chip in for the bus there, or maybe ACE pay for them. Have been there on a few occasions when school children have been visiting.

I enjoy reading your comments Dusak, certainly helps me appreciate life in Luxor a little better. So many tell me they have taken their child to the hospital, because they are 'hot'. A couple of injections later, the parents are happy, and to me it just seems like they have a common cold.......

Someone said to me, with many who can't read and write, it's easier for injections, as whereas in England we are given tablets, and told 3 tablets a day, 8 hours apart for 5 days, this would all be forgotten by many Egyptian families. So slow release injections are a safer option.

On the other hand saw an elderly lady who to me, looked like she had a chest infection, she had a terrible cough, difficulty breathing, really poorly. The family showed me her medication and it included toffees with calcium. It was written in English and Arabic. I know they have a sweet tooth, but toffees with calcium in..........

User avatar
Horus
Egyptian God
Egyptian God
Posts: 7931
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 3481 times
Been thanked: 2535 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Horus » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:24 pm

Perhaps it is the only way they can ensure that the elderly lady gets her calcium which is probably beneficial to an older person is to give it in sweet form?
Image

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:22 am

I suppose it does encourage them to take their medication. It was real tooth breaker type, the sort we used to get in the UK with a hammer. I think you can still buy it like that in some outlets.

User avatar
Dusak
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 2:29 pm
Location: LUXOR
Has thanked: 5895 times
Been thanked: 7328 times
Gender:
Thailand

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Dusak » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:50 am

I may be wrong, but I think that ACE arrange the transport and give them a drink. As for any other school trips, they have to be paid for and by Egyptian standards they are not cheap. They get a packed lunch if the journey is a distance away, but according to my friends kids in the family, they are very sparse and do not warrant the cost charged. Also its not uncommon for them to have paid for the lunch, but received non as it was ether left behind, or just not provided.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

User avatar
Miss scarlett
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:17 pm
Location: England
Has thanked: 375 times
Been thanked: 75 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Children Of Orfi Marriages Issued With Brith Certificate

Post by Miss scarlett » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:49 pm

Oh yes indeed, have seen them with a drink when I have been there. School trips were always exciting when I was at school, many years ago.....

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • same sex marriages
    by Kevininabydos » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:39 pm » in Just 4 Fun
    3 Replies
    343 Views
    Last post by LovelyLadyLux
    Sat May 05, 2012 4:12 pm
  • When Marriages Fail
    by LovelyLadyLux » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:54 am » in Just 4 Fun
    1 Replies
    1032 Views
    Last post by Bullet Magnet
    Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:10 am
  • Marriages between Egyptian men and foreign women on the rise
    by Janen » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:10 pm » in Intercultural relationships
    7 Replies
    316 Views
    Last post by Glyphdoctor
    Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:02 pm
  • 113,497 arrested in April in relation to issued verdicts...
    by DJKeefy » Wed May 18, 2016 3:34 pm » in News and Sport
    0 Replies
    332 Views
    Last post by DJKeefy
    Wed May 18, 2016 3:34 pm
  • How much did you pay for your orfi?
    by PRchick » Sat May 02, 2009 5:45 am » in Intercultural relationships
    65 Replies
    1636 Views
    Last post by Dusak
    Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:06 pm