You didn't know what you where doing.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Horus »

Carrie has the correct grasp of the situation, just how many votes do you want? And again I disagree with the statement:
all the leavers know this and that's why they don't want any other votes.

Well I beg to differ, all the leavers don’t know this, in fact I am hard pushed to find anyone I know that has changed their minds on how they voted, there may be some, but not the masses that you are implying.

As to crashing out on WTO terms I would say that is probably the most likely result, mainly because the EU will not want us to be seen to gain from our exit. WTO rules are no different than the terms we trade with anywhere else in the world where we do not have trade deals in place and the current 10% tariff is payable on both sides so it works both ways. Even under those terms I am confident that many European companies will want to do a deal once they see their sales to the UK adversely affected, they sell far more to us than we sell to them. Of course WTO terms only apply if you cannot reach some other compromise, it is just a fall back tariff level and is used until everyone sorts something better out between themselves which usually happens anyway. As to going back into the EU after saying we are leaving, I would liken that to an unfaithful partner in a marriage returning home after a one night stand, the other partner may take them back, but things will never be the same again and how often will their infidelity keep getting thrown back in their face? We would be in an intolerable position if we had to rejoin again under any terms, we could be ignored at every turn and no doubt told “well you can always leave” every time we challenged the EU in any way. Leaving the EU does not make us bad Europeans or need to damage trade, we as a country are quite prepared to continue with free trade and involvement in many aspects of European cooperation, we just want to be free of control from Brussels and to leave the EU club and to determine who crosses our borders to work or live here, not that difficult to understand or to accept. So if the EU is insistent on there being no deal unless you agree to free movement, then it is they who are being intransigent as they are fully aware of the reasons behind this and it is they who can change things and not us.


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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by FarleyFlavors »

Horus wrote:Farley Flavours describing everyone who voted for Brexit as uneducated
Steady on! I was just stating the facts. As the article (correctly) goes on to point out:

"Of course this assessment does not imply that Leave voters were almost all poorly educated and old, and Remain voters well educated and young. The Leave side obviously attracted support from many middle class professionals, graduates and younger people. Otherwise it couldn't have won."
Horus wrote:
"- The level of education had a higher correlation with the voting pattern than any other major demographic measure from the census."
I don’t suppose the desire for Scottish Independence had any influence on their voting pattern then?
Bang goes the above argument!

The data relates only to England and Wales.

"This ward-by-ward analysis covers 1,070 individual wards in England and Wales [...] We had very little ward-level data from Scotland, and none from Northern Ireland."

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

Horus wrote:
As to crashing out on WTO terms I would say that is probably the most likely result, mainly because the EU will not want us to be seen to gain from our exit. WTO rules are no different than the terms we trade with anywhere else in the world where we do not have trade deals in place and the current 10% tariff is payable on both sides so it works both ways. Even under those terms I am confident that many European companies will want to do a deal once they see their sales to the UK adversely affected, they sell far more to us than we sell to them. Of course WTO terms only apply if you cannot reach some other compromise, it is just a fall back tariff level and is used until everyone sorts something better out between themselves which usually happens anyway. As to going back into the EU after saying we are leaving, I would liken that to an unfaithful partner in a marriage returning home after a one night stand, the other partner may take them back, but things will never be the same again and how often will their infidelity keep getting thrown back in their face? We would be in an intolerable position if we had to rejoin again under any terms, we could be ignored at every turn and no doubt told “well you can always leave” every time we challenged the EU in any way. Leaving the EU does not make us bad Europeans or need to damage trade, we as a country are quite prepared to continue with free trade and involvement in many aspects of European cooperation, we just want to be free of control from Brussels and to leave the EU club and to determine who crosses our borders to work or live here, not that difficult to understand or to accept. So if the EU is insistent on there being no deal unless you agree to free movement, then it is they who are being intransigent as they are fully aware of the reasons behind this and it is they who can change things and not us.
My hope is that the exit of UK from EU ....and better still, a victory for Le Pen in France (and other far-right forces elsewhere)..... will stimulate Brussels into having a rethink on the way the EU project is going.

Abandon the "super-state" concept and go back to a mutually beneficial free trade block, with each country having ultimate control over its borders and domestic legislation. I think the UK would be happy to be a member of such an organisation.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Who2 »

I should have voted remain like 90% of Londoners albeit 80% like me are not born Londoners.
I mentally voted to leave the EU although I couldn't vote being on me holiday's.

Why ? because that was what is best for the whole of the UK.
London is a special place always was always will be.
London will always survive.

Jeremy Corben my MP for 30 years, wanted to leave but followed the party line which cost him his integrity, in my books my respect.

Personally my view it was a bad decision to join with Europe in the first place, Why ? because they are all foreign 'simples QED.
I have lived and worked and had businesses in Europe also liking and loving many Europeans plus driving and owning many European cars.

But giving up control of this Countries hard won principles and practices to said 'johnny foreigner was and is downright stupid.
In my humble opinion.

And just because over half the country voted to rest back control of our own destinies doesn't mean it will be implemented.

To the 'remoaners! "just get used to it, you lost so "suck it and see. "et videre non lactaverunt"... 8)

Ps: Never forget! 'Europeans have never known what living on an Island is all about......
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Horus »

Newcastle I could not agree with you more, had Brussels had the good sense to see where this open door policy and free travel within the EU was going and at the very least recognised the UK’s unique problem, then I am convinced this would not have happened. Cameron was literally given the two finger salute by the likes of Junkers and Tusk, Junkers in particular has always had enmity towards the UK, we rattle his cage too much and he will be glad to see us gone. The irony is that now the UK is leaving many more will start to question the way it is run and many changes will take place in the future that would have kept Britain in the EU, sadly those changes could only come about because we challenged the establishment and left the club. I will say again that most people I know were happy enough with the original Common Market, but no one voted for what followed, a steadily creeping European superstate with its own laws, currency and army. There is also no doubt that after B-Liar scrapped the slower transitional option for new EU members coming here and instead allowed immediate unfettered access that the rot set in. This country changed almost overnight as a huge influx of Poles and Rumanian’s flooded into the country and made many people feel uneasy about the numbers involved, the final straw was the flood of Middle East economic migrants swamping many EU countries and Merkels ridiculous invitation for a million more to come. People are not stupid and see these masses being attracted to our shores as the camps in and around Calais prove and they were naturally disturbed by this imminent invasion. Freedom of movement is the problem and always will be, but the EU refuses to recognise that, it may be a good idea in principle, but it has done us more harm than good.
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Dusak »

Watching news 24 France over the last few days, they have been studying Italy and the general attitude on the streets towards their membership of the EU. Looks like they could be the next to vote to stay or leave. At the end of the day its up to the voters. They either prosper by their choice, or fail miserably. You should not be entitled to a second chance just because it didn't go your way.
Life is your's to do with as you wish- do not let other's try to control it for you. Count Dusak- 1345.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by A-Four »

Dusak wrote:Watching news 24 France over the last few days, they have been studying Italy and the general attitude on the streets towards their membership of the EU. Looks like they could be the next to vote to stay or leave. At the end of the day its up to the voters. They either prosper by their choice, or fail miserably. You should not be entitled to a second chance just because it didn't go your way.
As I have written in the recent past, I am doing a lot of travelling in Europe, and therefore coming across an awful lot of ordinary 'Joes' in the local pubs in the late afternoon and evenings. I learn that the Italian banks are in a dreadful situation, the likes of which we have never seen before, and I include the 2008 disaster, the bubble is about to burst.

Greece is about to hit the news again, it seems that there is a demand that the Greek government have been told that they must reduce the pay out for those who get the state pension,......imagine that happening in The U.K.

I am sure people on here will remember the days of what was the Common Market, and the 'wine lakes' and 'butter mountains'. Some will remember that the butter was offered at a huge discount to EU senior citizens, that in reality cost a fortune to administer. In the end they sold most of it off to Russia, at a massive discount. After this, the EU actually paid farmers to keep their field fallow, unthinkable, but true. We learn this week that British farmers are to be encouraged to grow FULL seasonal produce, where at present it is imported from the likes of Spain.

I have always had an interest in the Common Market, and what it has done for the 'common' person of the EU. I do understand a favourite term that the EU commissioners often refer to, and that is HARMONIZATION. In other words all prices would be the same within the EU, did that mean the lowest price ? NO.

Now that we have had the battle royal on the EU membership on this forum from those who know all, I ask one very simple question,.....What benefit has any local Joe, as a individual member of EU been given, as a direct result of being a member of that union ?

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Major Thom »

I cannot remember a referendum to join, can anyone else? Steam Rollered comes to mind when the UK joined Europe. I just can never see a UK Citizen calling himself a European, there is too much water between us.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Bombay »

On Thursday 5 June 1975 the United Kingdom held its first ever nationwide referendum on whether to continue its membership of the European Communities (EC) principally the European Economic Community (EEC, or "Common Market") as it was more widely known at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendu ... ed_Kingdom

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by carrie »

Well I don't know where you were MT but there was a referendum on joining the Common Market, as it was then.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

"Very simple questions" are sometimes posed by "simple people" in connection with complex matters.....and then resolved by a quick poll of the semi-inebriated clientele of pubs and wine bars.

If the issue of EU membership was "simple", the vote to remain or leave would not have been split 16 million to 17.4 million.

Whether leaving is , in the long term, a good idea can only be answered..... in the long term. Maybe not even then, as we can only guess at what might have happened if we'd stayed in.

It would be remarkable, unless you believe successive governments were populated by idiots, that membership of the EU conferred no advantages whatsoever. For some of the plus points :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 50626.html

Those who wished to leave could, and did, point to a number of disadvantages...and their arguments won the day.

Both camps would have preferred to remain a member of the Single Market....except that it comes with freedom of movement deemed intolerable by the majority. One study indicates that between 1993 & 2003, the Single Market added 588 billion GBP to the GDP of the EU.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Horus »

The argument could also be made that Harold Wilsons 1975 referendum was held to legitimise our illegal membership of the EEC the precursor of the present EU. It is interesting that at the time our membership was opposed by 2:1 by the electorate of the UK, but Heath still took us in.

To quote a part of Vernon Colemans article:
Many constitutional experts believe that Britain isn't actually a member of the European Union since our apparent entry was in violation of British law and was, therefore invalid.

In enacting the European Communities Bill through an ordinary vote in the House of Commons, Ted Heath's Government breached the constitutional convention which requires a prior consultation of the people (either by a general election or a referendum) on any measure involving constitutional change. The general election or referendum must take place before any related parliamentary debate. (Britain has no straightforward written constitution. But, the signing of the Common Market entrance documents was, without a doubt, a breach of the spirit of our constitution.)

Just weeks before the 1970 general election which made him Prime Minister, Edward Heath declared that it would be wrong if any Government contemplating membership of the European Community were to take this step without `the full hearted consent of Parliament and people'.

However, when it came to it Heath didn't have a referendum because opinion polls at the time (1972) showed that the British people were hugely opposed (by a margin of two to one) against joining the Common Market. Instead, Heath merely signed the documents that took us into what became the European Union on the basis that Parliament alone had passed the European Communities Bill of 1972.
The full article can be read here, it makes interesting reading:
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

Interesting, as you say Horus.

Coleman 's view is that parliament is subservient to the will of the people expressed in a referendum etc. The Supreme Court recently decided, on a majority vote, that it isn't!

Take your pick :lol:

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Horus »

My view is that in the absence of a written constitution that the will of the people take precedence over a judicial bodies opinion, their job is to implement the will of the people and not to make decisions that counter or confound that will. Our laws are all about interpretation and typically judges and lawyers will argue for ever over “how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin”
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by John Landon »

Oh, Long gone are the days when the feeling said it all, and we moved into the Tower of Babel..... :cry:
.

So, does anyone know how any country that has checked out of Hotel California ( Denmark, Ireland, Greece and the UK ) actually leave ? :ct

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

Horus wrote:My view is that in the absence of a written constitution that the will of the people take precedence over a judicial bodies opinion, their job is to implement the will of the people and not to make decisions that counter or confound that will. Our laws are all about interpretation and typically judges and lawyers will argue for ever over “how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin”
I beg to differ!

The role of he judiciary is to interpret the law, and any customs and precedents, which in practice constitute our constitution.

"The will of the people" is a term which, in reality, is impossible to ascertain with certainty. You can have a go...via elections, referendums etc...but they only give the view of that proportion of the people who are entitled to vote, and actually do so.

As the people of US have discovered, even the expressed view of the majority of the eligible voters in selecting their president can be overturned by the peculiarities of their electoral system!

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Horus »

Well that is where we must agree to differ, it is like the current situation where an unelected body 'The House of Lords' will challenge the Elected Parliament and could potentially put many obsatcles in the way, I voted for none of them in that house.
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

In reality the Lords cannot overturn the will of the elected Commons.

They can review proposed law and suggest amendments. This is the function of the Upper House.

If a proposed law goes back and the Commons reject any changes, then at the second reading in the Upper House the Lords wishes are rendered irrelevant by the Parliament Act 1911.

The best the Lords can ever do is delay legislation, by up to 2 years. They've never done so, possibly because it would be akin to turkeys voting for Christmas!

Personally, I think the idea of a reviewing chamber is a good one , especially as it is no longer entirely the province of people with no more right to be there than an accident of birth.

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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by Who2 »

Quote: "I just can never see a UK Citizen calling himself a European, there is too much water between us.

Many here like to, shame that the channel just isn't wider.... 8)
Ps: ‘Churchill once said, “If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea”.
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Re: You didn't know what you where doing.

Post by newcastle »

The fallout over Brexit has now got much worse !!


Elsewhere, the effects of another political change are being felt at the R&A's St Andrews headquarters.

It is considering paying Open prize money in dollars following the post-Brexit collapse in the value of sterling.


Pressure is growing on the Championship purse at a time when the US Open is offering a record prize fund of $12m (£9.6m).

Last year's Open was worth £6.5m, which at current rates is worth a fraction over $8m.

"It's certainly an issue," Slumbers admitted. "When dollar/sterling moves 1.50 to 1.25 that has a serious impact for us"

http://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/39031246

I told you Brexit was a bad idea. Those poor , suffering, golfers. :snig: :snig: