Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Scottishtourist »

[quote="Subversion"]In reply to RS and ST
And while the situation you are outlining must have indeed been terrifying for the Europeans caught up in that - actually in the grand scheme of deliberate attacks on tourists, this pales to insignificance.

Your use of the word "terrifying"S kinda negates the impact of your post!
I really don't think that anyone caught up in this would consider it "insignificant!"
Guns,shootings,injuries?Just because there were no fatalities does not make it "pale to insignificance."
I know I'm probably the bane of many posters lives on this forum,always boring them with tales of nursing,etc.
But I've seen gunshot wounds!I won't go into graphic details about them...but believe me,they're nasty and difficult to treat and the fatalities can come later!
DJKeefy posts religiously on this forum about safety issues.How many times are his posts shot down in flames by those in denial (as Robert so rightly says!)



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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by shebs1964 »

Don,t know if Luxor anymore dangerous than anywhere else. I remember when the riots were happening here, the company I work for closed all offices early to allow workers to avoid any confrontations
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Scottishtourist »

That's sensible approach.The employers took precautions to protect their workers,forewarned was forearmed!
But the very nature of the Luxor "beast"is the volatility and rapid escalation of a situation!
Tourists,Westerners,etc,can maybe be advised to take safety measures...but sometimes they just can't foresee these situations and can get caught up in them..even after taking heed of all the advice!

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Winged Isis »

You could be right about an error re Aswan, Hepzi; we returned from there today, and there was no news or sign of anything.
Carpe diem! :le:

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by shebs1964 »

A question fot those who live in luxor, was this just one of those isolated incidents that can happen anywhere, i.e. the shootings by a taxi driver in Cumbria, or a regular occurance.
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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Subversion »

Scottishtourist wrote:
Subversion wrote:In reply to RS and ST
And while the situation you are outlining must have indeed been terrifying for the Europeans caught up in that - actually in the grand scheme of deliberate attacks on tourists, this pales to insignificance.

Your use of the word "terrifying"S kinda negates the impact of your post!
I really don't think that anyone caught up in this would consider it "insignificant!"
Guns,shootings,injuries?Just because there were no fatalities does not make it "pale to insignificance."
I know I'm probably the bane of many posters lives on this forum,always boring them with tales of nursing,etc.
But I've seen gunshot wounds!I won't go into graphic details about them...but believe me,they're nasty and difficult to treat and the fatalities can come later!
DJKeefy posts religiously on this forum about safety issues.How many times are his posts shot down in flames by those in denial (as Robert so rightly says!)
Keefy posts news items - more often without adding his own comments allowing the rest of us to make our minds up about our own views.

My point was that violence in Luxor against tourists is not a new phenomena and some have experienced at its very worst- it is something that some of us with a history with Luxor have come to terms with, accept that it has the potential to happen but is not something we particularly allow to influence our decision to spend time there.

Now if that gives the impression that those of us who feel that way are somehow lacking - well so be it - but there is a significant difference between taking an informed risk and being in denial.

It is also the case that sometimes things are not as they seem - and per Dilys's post this does not appear to have been a deliberate attack on westerners - I will say again that had their been an intent to do harm harm would have been done.

In the same way that people inadvertently got caught up in the UK riots last summer - westerners also get caught up in domestic situations abroad. The foreign office continues to publish guidance on Egypt and it is there for all to see - it is well documented in all the major guide books.

What happened to those people wasn't nice - but the chances are if they went back today and told the people concerned how afraid they had been made to feel, they would get a heartfelt apology.

Improving safety has to be a priority if Luxor wishes to improve its tourist lot - and if you really care that that happens do something - write to Dr Dardery, write to the Egyptian Embassy , write to the tour operators, post videos on you tube, publish reviews on trip adviser.

In reply to various posts on this issue, those that perhaps know Luxor better ( no I don't include myself) have tried to provide a different perspective - one that you are under no obligation to adopt - I don't think its been done from a stand point of denial it has been done from a standpoint of being encouraging and positive.

You of course will make up your own mind based on your own perceptions and own experiences about whether Luxor is the right destination for you.

And I respect what you do for a living and what you will have witnessed in the course of that - I personally don't feel inclined to talk about my professional life here - but lets just say your experiences of interpersonal violence have led you to your conclusions and mine have led me to the conclusion that Luxor is a damn site less violent that London (or Luton or Wales for that matter!)

Sx

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Robert Send »

Unfortunetly Sub. I believe you can write to who you want in Luxor, nothing will get done, there is no one in charge!!

Over the past few months there have been many shooting in Luxor many are not reported, it was not so long ago there was reports of a Policeman getting shot on the bridge, you can walk past the Police station and see bullet riddled Police cars on display for all and sundry to see. Yes you do get shootings in London but compare the size of Luxor to London and you will find Luxor is a village.

Getting back to the subject, are we saying that people were involved in a shootout over property, or something? and these people where in the wrong place at the wrong time? (The Ususal thing) or what are we saying? But no matter what people have said about this subject it does not get over the fact that there was an incident, shooting or not, and either tourists or Westerners living in Luxor were caught up in it. I am sure it must have been a frightening experience, and one that will remain in their memories. It really sounds civilised when you hear people talking about gunfights over land ownership, takes you back to the Dodge City days.

In this situation what would the Police have done in pre revolution days I wonder?

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by shebs1964 »

Reading your post RS I get the feeling you preferred Luxor before the revolution, which I find a very selfish attitude. I understand you worried about the future of your family
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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by shebs1964 »

But a country that has gone through such an upheaval is going to have problems your family sounds as though they do not want to help Luxor get through these changes but would rather have peace at any cost to human rights
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by LivinginLuxor »

I may be one of those people 'in deNile', but in my view, nothing much has changed since the pre-revolutionary days. Yes, people, there was crime, muggings, pickpockets, sexual harassment etc etc then, and possibly there has been an increase since - how significant an increase I don't know. However, I think it is our perceptions that have changed, and any small incident gets publicity here and elsewhere. As there is no visible police presence, unlike in Europe, many people think that there must be a great increase in crime, and therefore it is unsafe to come here. Flawed logic in my opinion.

I often talk with visitors and generally ask them what their feelings are, and virtually unanimously they tell me that they are having a great time, except for the hassle from caleches, shopkeepers, felucca captains etc. A similar view to those I got by talking to visitors before the revolution. They hadn't felt threatened, just annoyed, and none have been victims of pickpockets, scarf scams etc. So I can only conclude that the majority of visitors here are enjoying their stay as they did pre-revolution.
I might agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong!
Stan

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Mad Dilys »

I like that Stan, "visible presence". The "invisible" police presence is still with us.
I know what a huge number of police there have always been here and they are definitely not always easy to see.
Pre- revolution this was basically a police state - have all those security forces disappeared in a puff of smoke?
I stayed in a hotel in Cairo many years ago near a security station in a square. I got used to watching individual policemen and their mode of observation over several weeks. I guess I can pick out most of them now by their body language. One of my favourite pass-times when waiting for my DH in the car, especially in Cairo is Spot the Secret Policeman.
When we went to Sharm el Sheik about 15 years ago my DH said "I've only seen one policeman! Where's the security?"
I pointed to a gardener watering the grass in the middle of the street and explained that there was underground watering so no necessity for a gardener - and over there the chaps working in little tent in the road - and that man over there leaning on a wall and reading a newspaper, just watch his eyes..............................................
I must be honest that I found it enormously re-assuring at the time.
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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by hatusu »

Before I came to Luxor I lived in a small town in the Midlands that some people might never even have heard of and most people have no idea where it is when it's mentioned - Burton on Trent. Every time I go back there there's a murder being investigated; there was always some serious crime, if not murder, on the front pages of the local newspaper when I left England; I wouldnt go anywhere near the town centre on a saturday night; there were lots of places I wouldnt dream of walking alone even in the daytime; on market days I made extra specially sure of my shoulderbag being secure. My home and my neighbours home was burgled once in broad daylight despite all our security precautions and the crime never solved. Give me Luxor any day.

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Bearded Brian »

To tourists that have never been to Egypt I would say treat it like you would any other destination and you'll be as safe in Luxor (if not safer).

To returning tourist that have only visited post revolution I would say that you may find it less safe or more safe as it does appear to go up and down I've been 4 times post revolution - this time 'appears' safer - now that could be because I'm here during the 4 week election period and there is an increase in visible police presence. I'm not as good as MD at spotting the 'invisible' ones but yes they are still about.

To tourists that haven't returned since the revolution - yes you will notice a change and you may have to change what and when you do your 'holidaying' during the day/night. What I'm trying to say is be a little bit more aware without it spoiling your holiday until you get that 'comfortable' feeling.

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Bearded Brian »

I don't think that all the ex-pats are in DeNile - sometimes it difficult to see changes when they are only slight changes happening over a long period - it's a bit like a parent they may only notice that their children have grown when they need to buy new shoes etc yet the uncle that hasn't seen them for a few months will think they have shot up.

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Miss scarlett »

Hatusu - I know of Burton on Trent! Place of my first job. I used to get off bus and walk over Stapenhill bridge and worked at Webb Ivory. Know Burton on Trent, which is famous for the smell of its breweries.

Have to agree with you find Luxor safer than many of the towns in England. There are petty thefts and muggings wherever you go in the world. In fact I think the travel companies 'mug' you on a far bigger scale than any of the Egyptians do.

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by hatusu »

Hi MS - you'll be pleased to know that the smell's gone now, but so have most of the breweries!

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Winged Isis »

According to our taxi diver, this shooting incident was in the village near the unfinished bridge, and the culprit has turned himself in to the police. "Because he knows he is a dead man walking!", he said i.e. family reprisals.
Carpe diem! :le:

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Robert Send »

So now we know 2 people, arrested and detained by Luxor Police for Attempted Murder inciting confliction and terrorising the public, it has been printed in the National Press. 8 people were injured.

Its there in black and white, no mention of one person handing himself in at all.

So it seems it was more than just a skirmish between locals, or again maybe you will all disagree!! and maybe think that the charge of attempted murder is nothing. Going to be interesting how people reply to this, I suppose it will now be the media hyping things up, or do not always believe what you read in the paper

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Teddyboy »

I'm sorry Robert, but what on earth are you banging on about? All that the vast majority of us know about this tragic event is what we read on here. Unless a person was there, or caught up in the ensuing traffic problems (and even then they might not know why) it doesn't really have any effect on anybody else.

Similar acts of criminality (or flare-ups between rival groups) happen every day in many otherwise normal places throughout the world with the same sort of population density. In Luxor it obviously has more of a chance to impact on tourists, as there is generally a much larger proportion of tourists to locals here than in most other places which any of us has regular experience of.

I really think that you're making a mountain out of a molehill!

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Re: Back to the debate of luxor safety!!!!!!!!

Post by Mad Dilys »

HEPZIBAH wrote:Many thanks for the update MD. I share your concern for all those involved directly, or indirectly, in this awful incident.

DJKeefy posted a news report on another thread. It mentions being near Aswan but it sounds too much like this incident for it not to be the same one. In chatting, I think we have come to the conclusion that a mistake has been made and that it should not be referring to Aswan but to 'an area close to the Aswan road leading from Luxor'.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30035
Unfortunately it seems that there were indeed 2 incidents. :(
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