The EU referendum

[Horus]

I'll go along with that Newcastle if the goverment of the day wants to see a civil war all over again.
Back in 1975 the losers had to accept the will of the people even if they themselves had voted for out, that will not change and no amount of twisting and turning is going to change that.

[newcastle]

Civil War?......now there's a thought

The British Parliament is sovereign and it is accountable to the people — but through elections at which we choose those whom we want to represent us, not through referendums.A civil war was fought and a king beheaded to establish that sovereignty; it is not something that can be set aside at the whim of a Boris.


It would be a swift victory for the REMAINERS.......with Obama, Putin, Europe and the rest of the world on their side.

Who have the LEAVERS got?

Oh yeah.........Donald Trump (if he's not too busy playing golf)

[newcastle]

If we are to leave the EU, it will take a fully fledged Act of Parliament to do so. It is hard to see how a notice to quit under Article 50 could be served, given it sets that process in train without the agreement of Parliament.

But that should have to go through the Commons and the Lords, plus all the committee stages, just like any other Act of Parliament. That is a big ask for a Tory Government with a majority of only 14.

But if the vote was 51 to 49 on a turnout of 50%, they could legitimately argue that only just over 25% of the population had actively supported Brexit, and supporting a Bill to leave would be too big a step to take on the basis of such thin support. So, even if he wanted to, David Cameron could not get such a bill through the Commons, let alone the Lords. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, if he were to topple Cameron, would have even less chance.

The British Parliament is sovereign and it is accountable to the people — but through elections at which we choose those whom we want to represent us, not through referendums. To rub in the point, Members of Parliament are representatives, not delegates, the difference being they are there to decide what in their judgment is good for us and the country, not simply to do what we say.

So how might this be resolved? One obvious tactic would be for Cameron to accept the Brexit vote and undertake to begin negotiations for withdrawal without actually triggering the formal mechanism that sets the two-year clock ticking. As these negotiations proceed, people will gradually get a better idea of what Brexit might mean in practice and it is a fair bet if the negotiations are tough that they might begin to have some doubts as to what they had signed up to.

Even if they like the romantic idea of swimming in the wide open sea, they might not want to jump off Beachy Head to get into the water.

Once there was a clear idea of what leaving would look like, it might be legitimate to go back to the country and ask, via another referendum, whether people still wanted to do this. And who knows what that result would be

[Hafiz]

Horus you may not like this.

You say: "I see that Jean-Marie Le Pen has changed her avatar to that of a UK Union Flag, maybe that explains the urgency from Junkers and Francois Hollande in trying to stem revolts in the rest of the EU and that is why they are so keen for us to get it over with, maybe we have also done the rest of them a huge favour by voting out."

Firstly: Jean Marie is a man. - not a woman He (jean-Marie) is a geriatric person who is publicly derided by his daughter as senile and deranged and who has been expelled by the right-wing Neo Nazi party he established. Ironically, or not, he was expelled for being too extreme. The only non senile member of the le Pen family currently holding political influence is the dreadful daughter.Do people in Europe not know this?

Secondly. The political party he established is extreme right wing, anti-Semitic, populist, nationalist, racist, homophobic, sexist. narrow minded, anti-internationalist etc. etc and is now lead by his hideous populist, simple solutions to complex problems, daughter. It is a testament to French gullibility and their historical addiction for strong man government that this horrible party scores second in most recent French presidential elections. One in three French vote for these people. With their consistent voting results over more than a decade we can expect the political future of France to be bad rather than good. Le pen and their intellectual thug friends want out of 'Europe' - but for the worst possible reasons.

Le Pen, father or daughter, is one thing but the broader, and possibly connected, pattern, of resurgent right wing nationalist politics in Europe is a concern. Whether it is the ultra nationalist Catholic government in Poland, the right wing anti-democratic government in Hungry, the neo Nazi's in Greece, the Northern League in Italy, the near election of the fascistic Austrian President and the near universal rise of extreme right wing parties in the countries of the former Yugoslavia. There are also some nasties happening in the former Czechoslovakia. In normal circumstances this pattern, if indeed it is a pattern, would set off some bells and stimulate memories of events past and make people reflect on the dangers of nationalism in Europe.

You may not agree with the rabid policies of the senile Jean-Marie but even his mention in rational company runs the risk of your being associated with all the nasty nationalism and racism that has made Europe a killing ground from the 19th century through to 1945. If I was you I would not want to associate myself with him, or his execrable daughter, under any circumstances.

Its possible that I am just a single ignorant and 'colonial' voice but everything I have read in the last months seems evidence of populist and nationalistic high volume right wing politics and low logic which may lead Europe, not now but in decades, back to what it does best. Continuous war. War in either its economic, political or military forms.

The geniuses of modern European politics, General Marshall, Monet and Schumann understood the lessons of history and the need to build new economic and political systems to deal with nationalist competition. Third rate pygmies, persons who have built nothing, like Johnson, Farage Le Pen and others can destroy in a moment the patient, albeit flawed, work of decades and do this without a moments reflection on the problems it was built to avoid.

I will save a full serve of bile for another day.

[Horus]

Hafiz, you are of course correct, I actually meant his daughter Marine Le Pen and typed the fathers name in my haste to post the comment as I was reacting to incoming TV news. Of course I have no truck or sympathies for the fathers extreme views and mentioned it in the context of why the French would be so keen not to allow these views to flourish and hope to quickly put a full stop to more speculations on others exiting the EU.

As to the result, well we in the UK have been subjected to all the advice in the world from the likes of America, Canada, and of course Australia and many others determined to influence our decisions, some may have had a real concern on our behalf and some would be influencing us for their own interests. The people of the UK are not stupid and voted for what they wanted, to say otherwise would be disingenuous and with respect, it is we who will have to live with the consequences, good or bad. So I say to the rest of the world, you have had your say, you are only observers looking in and do not have to live with the problems (real or otherwise) of our EU membership and we have voted for what we feel is in our own interests and not those of America, Canada, Australia et al. I may feel that Australia, Canada and especially America made awful decisions in who they elected to govern them, but that of course is their affair and not ours, so I would respectfully say that thanks for all your concerns, but keep your noses out of our internal affairs, it is the UK and not you who are deciding the issue.

[newcastle]

I didn't read Horus' comment re Le Pen as even an association with her odious philosophy but rather a simple statement of the obvious...that the far-right in Europe (who also want OUT) will drag up the UK vote as succour for their cause.

No more, no less.

An unfortunate consequence of the OUT vote may be the disintegration of the EU, and the ascendancy of the far right....with the possible consequences referred to by Hafiz.

The idea that the EU was in any way responsible for peace in Europe was widely ridiculed in the referendum debate. Wrongly so, in my view. Even if the point had been taken...I doubt it would have altered the outcome.

The outcome was decided on a range of, mostly emotive, concerns....which is why the idea of referendum was, in my view, flawed from the outset. You don't ask 50 million people to decide on a complex issue which 40 million of them barely comprehend.

If that's your interpretation of democracy at work.....God help us!

[Who2]

After 40 years I think we can start to ignore what the Europeans think, they have been ordering us around for far to long.
I love the French, Spanish, Italians, Germans ect, but Europeans forget it...
They are all in danger of losing their individualities and have become a grey mass...

[Horus]

Thank you Newcastle, I was about to add an Edit to my earlier reply to Hafiz and object to the fact that he implied I held those particular views, it may have been a mistake on his part, but I dislike someone putting words in my mouth that I have not uttered. When I make a post I do so from the standpoint of generating discussion and although in this instance I do support the 'leave' side I usually try to summarise the current situation rather than take any particular side, but I am aware that I may show a particular bias as indeed Halfiz does when he makes a post or comment..

[newcastle]

After 40 years I think we can start to ignore what the Europeans think, they have been ordering us around for far to long.
I love the French, Spanish, Italians, Germans ect, but Europeans forget it...
They are all in danger of losing their individualities and have become a grey mass...

It may be a minority opinion, but I'm all for the European "project" of closer and closer association.

I'd have been a lot more choosy about who I let in however! No peg-vendors or anyone with too many strange letters in their alphabet.

And after the common currency....why not the "common language"

English of course. And move the HQ to London while we're about it.

One man - one vote on every thing and every appointment. Except for the British - who get two votes.

We paid a high price for dithering at the outset...although of course De Gaulle had a hand in that. An extra-judicial elimination of him would have been a good idea at the time.

[Hafiz]

Horus don't quote people unless you want to be associated with them. You opened the door. 'Madame' le Pen is no better than her father she is just a more plausible package.

Horus - you say: " I may feel that Australia, Canada and especially America made awful decisions in who they elected to govern them, but that of course is their affair and not ours, so I would respectfully say that thanks for all your concerns, but keep your noses out of our internal affairs, it is the UK and not you who are deciding the issue.

I said something very simple about Johnson and Farage. Compared with the farsighted fathers of Europe they will be judged pygmies. We will only know whether I am right in 50 years time but, think for one moment, about who they are. Neither have ever held great power - let alone power over a people or a continent. Neither have ever built anything of scale or significance. Neither has ever had a job that required them to deal with anyone outside their own small domestic shire nor a job which required them to think in decades nor on a grand scale.

The debate was a pygmy debate principally about immigration and lies about payments to the EU. Continental security and the maintenance of liberal democracy hardly got a mention. Silly arguments about the Chanel and 'we are not a part of Europe' ignore the fact that England has been part of almost every continental war since the time of Elizabeth I. Its an illusion to state that the debate was based on high principle, grand strategy or farsightedness. The whole thing was a squalid pig in a poke effort.

Of course it is your affair whom you elect. But if you mean that no outsider could not develop an argument, based on facts, which suggested that these electees were third rate then you would be suggesting, either that no outsider had a right to a view (whether based on argument, reason and facts not just raw opinion), no 'outside' opinion is valid or worth listening to or only insider opinions are informed or valid. Pretty narrow.

The quality of politics, politicians, and political decision making, wherever, is always open to debate and comment. After all a fair bit of this forum is spent on discussing all that is wrong in Egyptian politics - should all this now stop based on the rule you have now established for 'hands off' UK politics or is this a rule only for the UK? Should we also stop commenting on the horrible Trump. Be careful you are at risk of establishing a rule you are unlikely to want to keep.

Internal Affairs - is that all that you think is at stake? If that was the case then all the world political leaders would not have felt the need, for venal or other reasons, to speak out. Venal or otherwise this vote had impacts, admittedly secondary, which required responsible governments to speak out in their own interests. This was never just an internal affair. Should Australia have been silent when it thought that its interests were imperiled by a Brexit and when lunatics in the UK were suggesting that the Commonwealth was an alternative to the EU. The Commonwealth is a club of drunks and crooks and no British voter should have been misled otherwise. The Commonwealth provides no new future for the UK and Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand all said so before the vote. Only fools or demagogues in the UK would try to say otherwise. If at the end of the vote you think that it was just an internal matter then, with respect, I think that you have missed a big part of this issue.

A Brexit means a relatively stronger Germany in Europe and a France that has no third party to play against Germany and that is not a good thing for the world nor is it for an Australia which has twice sacrificed tens of thousands dead to save Britain from German continental domination. We have a right, based on blood, to a view, maybe a partial view, about what best ensures security in Europe. There is a respectable view that a UK integrated in Europe best secures the peace and only a fool would say that he does not want to hear that.

[Horus]

OK Hafiz, it is obvious by your reply that you don't consider any admin or mod on this forum should have an opinion or make a comment that you disagree with. I have said before that I do enjoy reading your posts ... but! you present them in a cold clinical way that echoes your own personal views and never offers any opportunity for debate, it is clear that your own assessment of any given situation is in your own opinion the definitive account, it is usually lengthy, full of your own analysis and it leaves no room for comment.

Whilst I on the other hand try to encourage a debate and often add my own little take on the situation (often tongue in cheek) and it is intended to create discussion and often to lighten up an otherwise blandly presented analysis that has little appeal for many, but remember that for all your keen analysis it is just your own personal view regardless of how well it has been presented and neither do you have a monopoly on writing a political essay or have the only opinion of world events, interesting though they may be.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with anything I say, but once again I must take you to task, you or no one else is entitled to tell me that by mentioning the name of someone that YOU personally find distasteful (as indeed do I) that it in some way associates me with their political views, it does not! and I find that you trying to imply the same in order to win the moral high ground to be particularly obnoxious and patently untrue, but of course you know that anyway and that is why you implied it as you have done with other things in your last post.

Quote

"should all this now stop based on the rule you have now established for 'hands off' UK politics or is this a rule only for the UK? Should we also stop commenting on the horrible Trump. Be careful you are at risk of establishing a rule you are unlikely to want to keep."

Another falsehood being fostered by you, I have set no rule for what is posted regarding the UK elections or any other political comment and stop trying to imply that I have. You know exactly what I was referring too and it was the interference of your respective countries in trying to influence our UK referendum that I said about keeping your noses out and not to you as a member or anyone else on here for that matter, so at least do me the honour of getting your facts right and not trying to put words in my mouth or making false accusations.

I am now out of what I had hoped would be a good debate, but as usual someone has to mention Hitler when they are trying to defend their position. Also I am not offering myself up as an Aunt Sally to anyone who feels the need to sling mud in my direction, neither do I intend to have every reply I make analysed and picked over by you for some perceived infraction then having to defend myself against your own moral code of people whom I may or may not mention in a post without incurring your ire. Goodnight.

[Who2]

Quote: 'but I dislike someone putting words in my mouth that I have not uttered.

Funny that it's the one thing that gets my hackles up instantly, it' questions my memory and my life's principles...

[newcastle]

Quote: 'but I dislike someone putting words in my mouth that I have not uttered.

Funny that it's the one thing that gets my hackles up instantly, it' questions my memory and my life's principles...

One of my pet hates too. I left the parallel forum to this....L4U Network-Original (run by Keefy's nemesis).... precisely because the admin kept posting what she imagined to be my thoughts, attitude or words.

Then you have to repeat yourself, clarify, correct....all gets very tedious.

[Horus]

That is my point exactly, I have tried my best of late to try and bring some sort of common sense on here and to try and get things going for the interest of all of us who log on and to get away from constant bitching and "he said, she said" arguments. It is even worse when some people nit pick every word to try and put there own interpretation on what you actually said and of course to take some personal slight or perceived insult, but worst of all is to put words in your mouth to support their own argument, We all make typos or occasionally what we mean to say does not always come across as we meant it, but for gods sake it is usually bloody obvious what it is we are saying and to twist someone's words deliberately is the last straw and a poor excuse to justify your position. If there are two things that really get my back up it is when either someone resorts to calling you a racist because your views conflict with theirs or that they impose a taboo of their own that the rest of us are not suppose to utter such as ridiculing religion or disbelieving in fairies. I have had a crap week, very little sleep with a bad foot and nothing but grief trying to explain myself to people who just wish to deliberately misunderstand what is or has been said.

Hafiz asked earlier if anyone was reading his posts and if he should continue, well I did read them and I said so, then encouraged him to continue making them. I hope he continues to do so as I am sure many other members also enjoy his well researched little essays, I however will not read or make future comments on anything he puts on here beyond checking that it conforms to forum rules. I have no interest in being misquoted and then having to defend myself, so in future should he again wonder if or not anyone is reading his missives due to no feedback, he may reflect on how he responded to me when I indulged him in debate.

[newcastle]

It's been a funny old day on social media....one of the strangest I can recall.

Looking at some of the stuff on my timeline, those that ended up with a result they supported seemed to be getting a lot more hot under the collar than those disappointed with the outcome....very odd!

Undoubtedly the referendum, and its outcome, has exposed a bitter divide between various segments of the public.

C'est la vie......

Keep smiling and, as someone said, 'don't let the ******** get you down'.

Goodnight all

[Horus]

As you say, it has been a funny old day, but I am sure we will all come throught it, we usually do, goodnight Newcastle.

[crewmeal]

And now they want to kick Corbyn's arse. I agree. He's done nothing worth mentioning for the remain group. At Bately last week alongside Cameron he look a disheveled mess in ill fitting clothes. I hope Andy Burnham throws his hat into the ring and becomes leader. The International stage will take more notice of him.

[Bombay]

I think its the worse day for the UK since Chamberlain came back from Munich.

17 million plus have bought the snake oil.

Even Farage said the 350GBP million a week on the bus was misleading.

[newcastle]

You can fool all of the people some of the time.

You can fool some of the people all of the time.

But, what REALLY counts is if you can fool a sufficient number of the people, at the right time......


With apologies to Abraham Lincoln

[newcastle]

Nicola Sturgeon isn't the only one looking for a second referendum.

More than 1.5 million people have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum, after the vote to leave.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36629324