Castles

[carrie]

I was thinking today about the number of castles that are scattered throughout Europe, built to help repel enemies, to live in etc. Looking at the thick mud brick walls of places like Medinet Habu were the temples seen as a defensive buildings?

[Dusak]

I think that any high wall constructed, no matter from what time period, is either to keep unwanted folk out, or something in. A wall has always been a natural form of defense or an enclosure. But sometimes they are created just to let others know, we did it cos we can afford to build it that high. A statement of wealth and grandeur.

[Yildez]

I guess the fortress type walls reflect the immense value of the treasure held inside the temples Carrie. Another indication of this is the ranks of storage batteries - at Medinet Habu and the Ramessium for example. Temples had huge incomes from land grants, taxes, donations and large gifts from successive pharoahs - in fact they became nearly as powerful as pharaoh himself by the time of Ramses II.

[carrie]

Yes but the Egyptians did wage war, the Sea People, for example, the scenes at Medinet Habu show warfare with the chariots, where did the army live and where did they keep their equipment?

[Horus]

Good question Carrie, I would say that they served two purposes both symbolic and practical. First of all they defined the outer area of the temple complex which would also have housed mammisis and other chapels and of course a sacred lake and so this area as well as the actual temple needed to be controlled, it may also have acted as a symbolic separation of the ‘holy’ temple complex from the chaotic world that existed outside the temple area.

Also as Yildez has pointed out the priesthood were incredibly rich under many Pharaohs who gave great wealth and power to them as they were in many ways the educated administrators used by Pharoahs to control the economy and the people. They did indeed become very powerful and some even became Pharaohs in their own right having been high priests at Thebes and Pinedjem I & II are good examples and his ( Pinedjem I) lone statue can be found standing inside the first pylon courtyard at Karnak Temple. It was this wealth and power that Pharaohs such as Akhenaten tried to control by replacing their god Amun with the worship of the Aten, which meant he was the intermediary to the god Aten and not the priesthood, thus diminishing their control, power and wealth.

At times of strife or of invasion there is little doubt that these outer walls would have been further fortified in order to protect the temple complex, but being mud brick a lot of this original structure has been lost although I am always impressed by what remains today and often explore these outer areas if possible.

[Dusak]

...and the remains have stood there for thousands of years, and yet, all it would take to make them totally disappear for ever would be one powerful thunderstorm with a few hours of torrential rain, more destructive than any armies.

[Horus]

Very true Dusak and I am sure that many have seen such thunderstorms in the past although not on the scale you talk about, as I remember it was not so long ago that the temple of Seti was hit by a flash flood.

[Mad Dilys]

I remember there was a lot of flooding, I would guess 1994. A lot of houses on the west bank collapsed and souvenir shop on the right hand side of the road below Hatshepsut simply disappeared lock stock and barrel. Roads were washed away and the water lay on the desert near Valley of the Queens for three weeks.

Of course the "Mountains" on the West Bank are actually a plateau and make a big catchment area for the rain so the run off and flash flooding is very dramatic.

I spoke to a tourist who was coming from the Valley of the Queens when the rain started pouring off the top of the mountain like a waterfall. She said they watched a man who tried to wade across the road to join them - the water was round his ankles when he started and by the time he got to the other side of the road, it was over his knees. They thought he was going to be washed away and didn't knowhow they would be able to help him.

Some families were given tents as their homes had either gone, or were too dangerous to enter.

[newcastle]

The 1994 flood caused a huge amount of damage both in Vok and the surrounding area.

See : http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-05/ ... hern-egypt

JA also posted a lot of pictures : http://luxor-news.blogspot.com.eg/2010/ ... tures.html

[Hafiz]

Carrie - interesting question - and maybe little examined.

Unlike most history/archaeology in the world the focus in Egypt has been on burials, tombs, religion and temples. The economy, agriculture, war, government and literature don't seem to have got as much attention as, say, Babylon, Ur and similar places from a similar period. Maybe the sand-gropers went for the obvious, spectacular and easy - tomb mania/philia. Alternately, as others above suggest, buildings for protection from war may have disappeared. As with the other things, agriculture etc, maybe the material remains have just been lost to time.

On the other hand, but from a later time, it is clear that even at the height of their powers Athens and Rome were walled. I don't know about Crete but might check.

However you have stimulated my interest in the question of how the Egyptians protected themselves from attack/invasion - and this might have been a lot more than just building walls around cities. For example, unlike most other places, invasion of Egypt would most likely have proceeded up or down the Nile - movement of troops across desert being difficult. Unlike Europe this might have meant that invasions could be foreseen and the enemy engaged in predictable ways and in limited space at great distances from urban areas. But I know nothing - however the question is interesting - given the numerous invasions from Nubia, Libya, the sea and via Palestine.

A related point. Castles in Europe are more about the landed/military aristocracy and the protection they needed from the cousins down the road. In Germany and Italy the numerous castles also show that until very recently these countries were a network of petty independent principalities only brought together as single nations after 1870. In France and England you could see them as evidence of the fine balance of power between the king and his nobles - something which seems to have been absent in Egypt.

I think it is true that power in Egypt was always more centralised and hence greater internal stability as well as a less powerful aristocratical class living in the 'counties' running their own show under general delegation. But I go on too long.

[newcastle]

Pharaonic Egypt certainly had fortified towns, in addition to the religiously-inspired walled temple enclosures.

Here is a lengthy, and detailed, article on the subject :

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/fortresses.htm

[A-Four]

Initially when I first moved to Luxor, I could never understand why Howard Carter built his house on the West Bank in the area we see it. (But then again in those youthful days, I believed he was a honest archeologist.) He was fully aware of the route a flash flood travelled from either the King's or the Western Valley, and certainly witnessed a number of them in his time there.

Today, look carefully at the side of the crossroad opposite a place called Sitt Zaban, quite near Carter house, and you will see huge boulders, these were washed down along the main route from the Kings Valley that now forms the modern day road. In Carters time there was no such road. In recent years the authorities built a flood 'defence' course which they hope will deflect a future major flood, sending the major force to the North towards Gabowi, then turning East along an unpopulated area of El Tarrife.