Luxor4u

Paedophiles lurk in every corner of every profession in every religion. It is the person who is corrupt, not the "organisation".

[/quote]Jeez oh BM!That's a rather sweeping statement!!Every Roman Catholic condemned as a child abuser?
How many "radical"Catholics do you know?
We're going to Mass on Sundays,taking Communion,praying for all the unfortunates...and we ain't ignorant of the facts!
Are we hacking to death young soldiers in name of Catholicism?
No,no,no!!!
There's good and bad in every religion.Don't tar us all with same brush![/quote]


Very curious ST, I'm only dredging this up to illustrate your rank hypocrisy here:

I seem to remember that you were not prepared to cut me any slack whatsoever for being a football fan when my head got in the way of a policeman and his horse.

GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION you exclaimed!

Well ST, if you will hang around in organisations that do bad things surly by your own logic you must take your share of the blame here.

This is your own personal "bashed head" moment!



[quote="Bullet Magnet"]Every Roman Catholic is SUPPORTING Child abuse by default. So is the state.
Catholicism was BRUTALLY enforced for centuries throughout Europe, and now it is infesting the third world, especially Africa, where European medieval punishments are condoned for those who may be accused of "sin"

I think that this and other man made religions may be telling a few porkie's about God...
Funny old "game", Life... [/quote]

HERE HERE!

IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE CURE THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Perhaps when you are at communion today you might want to register your disgust at the child abusers given safe haven behind the Vatican walls?

And the successive Popes that have failed to A, give them up to the wheels of justice and B, failed to stop it continuing.

Perhaps you may want to register your opposition to the rabid, frothing at the mouth Catholic policy of no condoms which condem tens of thousands to death and disease in Africa and other poor parts of the world?

[quote="biosceptic"]perhaps the comparison was not the best but I disagree with you black and white position - You ignore the more than 90% of priests who have no connection to paedophilia. You imply that there is just as much paedophilia today as thirty years ago which is palpably absurd. You would reward the improved processes, detection and reporting with an outright "you are all still evil" response.

Do you apply the same standard to every other organisation?
Should all the Egyptian police resign because one person is injured in police custody?
Would you close down a hospital because it has a higher death rate than another rather than looking for how it could be improved. More change can occur from within.

If you only see the bad in institutions and never see the good they do or the improvements they have made would be the same as condemning a child for a sin the committed year ago.[/quote]

Biosceptic, are you actually seriously advancing this as an argument?

How many thousands or is it tens of thousands of priests are there?

And you are actually saying its only around 10% of them that are potential child abusers?

How many priests that are potential child abusers does that make then?

WELL THATS OK THEN!

Incredible.

I would describe any organisation as "evil" if it managed to brainwash its members into being more motivated to defend their church than they are to attacking it for its evil elements as is in evidence on this thread.

Every time!

[quote="biosceptic"][quote="Bullet Magnet"]Why was the Church allowed to deal with the kiddie fiddling priests instead of the Authorites ?
You see, there is more to the Church than just buildings and congregations. Religion is used as a weapon, and very effective it is too if you do not question it.[/quote]

This issue really relates to why victims have not reported to the Authorities rather than the Church. Clearly if victims had reported to the authorities they would have responded. In recent times of course the Church has reported incidents to the police but they are still being condemned for old policies and the conflict between child protection and protection of the tradition of the confession.

Although I have no doubt that there have been many cases of priests, teachers, scout leaders and others in positions of authority abusing children I am also concerned that no person accused of abuse that occurred over thirty years ago ( as in some recent cases) can ever be able to mount a sound defence and have a fair trial.

[quote="Bullet Magnet"]Name the GOOD that the Catholic church has done please. ?[/quote]

There is a great deal of charitable work done my many catholic orders in many parts of the world. Can you ignore the work of Mother Teresa in India, or the relief work done by many Catholic charities such as Caritas throughout the world.
Even the much denigrated teaching orders have been responsible for educating many poor people, most of the current leaders of the Aboriginal communities in Australia and many leaders in other countries have had a Catholic education.
Then their are the mothers clubs, work with homeless, St Vincent de Paul, financial counselling, drug alcohol and gambling supports, and support for refugees.
While some decisions the Catholic church and other institutions made in the past are questionable in todays society (eg forced adoption) they were in tune with the society of their time.

Taking such a BLACK position without seeing any white or grey in such a large institution is unhelpful.[/quote]

Can we ignore the work done by Mother Theresa?

No, and I would not want to!

Too many people who have not bothered to get the facts think this woman was good.

SHE WAS PURE EVIL!

To quote the great Christopher Hitchens:

"She was not a friend of the poor she was an ally of poverty"

On many occasions she said that being poor was a "virtue"

One struggles to know where to start with this horrid woman.

She refused to allow anyone in her "hospital" and I use the term loosely in her case to leave to go and get life saving treatment elsewhere because they "are in Gods hands now"

Many volunteer doctors and nurses left because of the avoidable abuses that lead to miserable deaths at the hands of her actions.

Needles unsterilized (not even properly cleaned), when this was questioned by volunteers they were told that needles cost money and in any case it will speed along the path their delivery to the hands of god.

Didn't sop the Catholic church from flying her off to one of the worlds most advanced hospitals in Switzerland when she was ill though.

And why?

Because she was numero uno when it came to fund raising for the Catholic church.

Do you have any idea how many thousands of millions she raised for the church?

And hardly a penny spent on that horrific place she ran in Calcutta because the money was better spent on missionaries in far flung parts of the world.

Its all about increasing the membership!

One of the biggest disgraces was when she was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, in her acceptance speech she actually said:

"Contraception was the biggest threat to world peace"

She took millions from dictators that had robbed their own people and she refused to give it back.

Educate yourself about her and read "The missionary position" by Christopher Hitchens.
Do you have any idea how much money the catholic church has?

Its almost incalculable - they could make poverty a real thing of the past if they wanted to.

But spreading the good word is far more important.

As is telling ill educated people that condoms actually cause AIDS, - if that is not evil I do not know what is.

You are right, evil exists in many religions and major organisations but good old Catholicism is right up there.

They went double platinum for their place in the charts hundreds of years ago and they still are doing!

I will quote Hitchins again:

"If I had arranged a baby sitter and the person turning up was robed in holy order Id call first a cab and then the police!"

Religion offends me.

Well said Bullet!

[quote="annieacorn"]Paedophiles lurk in every corner of every profession in every religion. It is the person who is corrupt, not the "organisation".[/quote]


So was/are the Nazi and Ku Klux Clan organisations not corrupt then?

Where to start with a response to this tirade Zooropa.
Since you choose only to mention Mother Teresa, I assume my other examples of good you don't wish to disagree with?

"SHE WAS PURE EVIL"

If the only people you are willing to credit are those who criticise her then of course that would be a valid view, but even a quick look at Wikipedia will show there are a range of views.

You asked about any good? but you choose to only credit the bad without asking the question would everyone have been better off if she had stayed in Albania. - some may well have been but everyone??

This merely served to emphasise my view that your argument is all black with out any shading of white or grey.

No I don't approve of all the views of the Catholic church on matters like contraception and gay rights but I do not make the assumption that this makes all their acts bad.

I should have guessed my use of the arbitrary 90% of priests are not involved in any form of child abuse, would generate a nit picking response. No I am sure that there are far less than 10% paedophiles but as I do not have the numbers to quote I chose to be conservative in my argument.
Of course I believe that 1 paedophile priest is one to many but I will not engage in a witch hunt or a join those who choose the vigilante approach, as far to often the emotional and irrational response is miss directed as in recent anti-copt actions in Egypt.

Quite clearly anything related to Catholicism offends you and I am unlikely to shift your view as it is held with a "religious" like zeal and unlikely to be swayed by any argument that there is a balance between good and evil acts by any individual and group.

I am willing to be convinced that the balance of good and evil acts of the Catholic church is more towards the evil than I currently believe, but I cannot accept that it is ALL EVIL. My little personal exposure to the Catholic institutions in Australia and many Catholics that I know and the good they have done still counts for something.

I still believe from an outsider - non catholic view that the good still outweighs the bad in the Catholic Church but I know we will remain in disagreement on that point.

Zooropa wrote:

annieacorn wrote:Paedophiles lurk in every corner of every profession in every religion. It is the person who is corrupt, not the "organisation".

So was/are the Nazi and Ku Klux Clan organisations not corrupt then?

Zooropa - as both these organisations practiced what they said they would they are technically not corrupt , however I am willing to accept that these organisations did far more evil than good.

As we have now reached the point predicted by Godwin's law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I think its time to step back from the keyboard on this topic.

Sister Wendy was a nice nun, knew a lot about painting, phoned her up one day about my gutters...

Biosceptic


Hitler is credited with founding the first national health service.

So what if he killed 6 million Jews?

Hes not all bad!


As for Goodwin's law, I might say the same of Mother Teresa, eventually, when debating righteousness and kindness, comparisons are made with her.

Quite wrongly in my opinion!

You can admire Mother Teresa if you like but personally, any one of the examples I gave above qualifies her for complete loathing in my book.

The fact that Nazi's and KKK practice what they preach does not alter the fact they are corrupt.

The Nazi's stole millions from the Jews and other foreigners, erm how many elections did Hitler hold in the twelve years he was in power?

Corrupt!

KKK are one of the biggest organised crime outfits in the southern US

Corrupt!

Z, you are of course right about Mother Teresa, apart from the things you mentioned, she was another religious nutter who pushed her own beliefs onto people, such as the sick who were suffering, and she believed that suffering was good for people, so did nothing to prevent it in individual patients. She indeed raised Millions, most of which went untouched in a big fat bank account....


I have learned that you cannot have a rational argument with religious people, otherwise, there would not be religious people, however, I will attempt to submit my 2 penneth tonight, it's tricky, and I am not out to convert or unconvert anyone, I shall keep it simple and peaceful, hopefully, people will think for themselves about a few things.

All religions state that their believers have to suffer through all life's trials and tribulations, to go without, to suffer the discomfort of loss and pain. They will be rewarded in Heavens haven of hallucinogenic hallelujahs. Well sod that for a game of soldiers, I only want the good bits now.

[quote="Dusak"]All religions state that their believers have to suffer through all life's trials and tribulations, to go without, to suffer the discomfort of loss and pain. They will be rewarded in Heavens haven of hallucinogenic hallelujahs. Well sod that for a game of soldiers, I only want the good bits now.[/quote]


Amen Dusak, Amen!

There are many arrogant facets of religions and religious people.

One of them is to turn the rest of us into a group of people who have an apposing view to them.

First it was "non believers"

Now its plain old "Atheists"

We don't have fairists or flying teapotists or unicornists.

There is no difference.

I suppose "Atheist" is shorter and quicker than saying "people who deal in evidence based facts and not fairy stories"

Dusak wrote:All religions state that their believers have to suffer through all life's trials and tribulations, to go without, to suffer the discomfort of loss and pain. They will be rewarded in Heavens haven of hallucinogenic hallelujahs. Well sod that for a game of soldiers, I only want the good bits now.

Not quite,Dusak!
There's quite a difference between being a "religious"person and "being a member of a specific church."
If you honestly think that every Catholic subscribes to this school of thought...then you are mistaken.
BM was right in his comment when he said that Catholics have the freedom not to attend church(I think that's what he was meaning.)Well,that's true...but we also have the freedom to make that choice.I don't believe for a minute that we will suffer eternal damnation just because we choose not to attend at any point.
Religion is a personal choice and at the very least a code of moral values that many try to abide by.You probably abide by some of them too (maybe without even realising it.)
Do you steal?
Do you kill?
Do you covet your neighbour's goods or wife?
Did you respect(honour)your parents?
Well,they're some of the 10 commandments that we learned at an early age and that the majority of people probably adhere to.
That doesn't make them particularly religious...it just makes them decent human beings.

ST, do not, try to credit ANY religion with the founding of these morals, the ten commandments are vastly outdated by values operated by non religious groups of people.

Commonly reffered to as the "golden rule"

Treat people how you wish to be treated yourself.

Most of the common values today have been developed by secular people and actually reversed religiously developed things such as slavery, witch trials etc.

Today, there are many groups of people who have no god, are cut off from the modern world who practice the ten commandments out of a developed humanity.

To be quite frank, I would be very wary of anyone who get their values from the bible or any other holy book or doctrine.

If you cant work out your own moral code without the need of the above then its a poor, poor story.

Well where did you get your values from then Z?
Babies are born innocent and ignorant,no thoughts,no values,no morals...they just want to eat and sleep all day and demand 24 hour care.
So who teaches them right from wrong?Who instills values and morals?
Who moulded you?
Everyone needs a "teacher"or we would descend into complete indifference and anarchy.
Did you ever watch "Lord of the Flies?"
Some get it from following a faith and adapting those teachings to their lifestyle...but others get it elsewhere.
So there's really no point in condemning those who choose to find it by following a faith and choosing that path.
Where'd you find the phrase "treat people how you wish to be treated yourself?"
That ain't a new saying...so it's come from somewhere!
So in my opinion there's gotta be something working somewhere at a higher level to instill those values.

ST, the exact origins of the golden rule are not fully known but I repeat, they outdate any religious input.

If you want to believe that before Moses came back down from the mountain with his tablets that the people killed, stole and did all the other things forbidden by the ten commandments as a matter of course then that's up to you.

Where did I get my values from?

Certainly not from a book or a person passing on the "morals" of a book that said it was ok to keep slaves and rape their woman, and execute a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath or saying its ok to murder your children if they don't respect you!

I got my values from my parents and from making up my own mind.

My father was an atheist and my mother a Christian.

Both told me to make up my own mind.

How do the children of tribes who have no religion manage to develop what we would regard as acceptable morals?

Ironically, crime rates in many of these communities are much lower than in communities that have "religious guidance"

We, as a race have been developing our moral structure over a long time and I happen to credit that to human development and advancement rather than some white bearded guide sat on a cloud somewhere.

It would appear you have less regard for the human race and its capabilities of evolving than I do.

Each to their own.

On reading the above posts this thought came to me which I'm now mulling over and it is basically - WHEN in any group of people does a belief system become religious? If you're living in a specific environment and it becomes necessary to do X,Y or Z based on common consensus to survive (or just get along better) - when do you think this becomes religious? AND why do you think some groups of people turn the beliefs compulsory?

Zooropa wrote:Certainly not from a book or a person passing on the "morals" of a book that said it was ok to keep slaves and rape their woman, and execute a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath or saying its ok to murder your children if they don't respect you!

You reading the Koran then Z?
Honour killings?Murdering your children if they don't respect you or your wishes?
How many incidences of this have we heard about in UK?
Case in Glasgow just few months ago.Father and uncles butchered daughter because she dared to go against their wishes and her religion.
That's antiquated theology...cos even us Catholics have tolerance and any illegitimate babies are accepted by all.
God,my own daughter informed me 8 years ago that she was pregnant at age 17!
I now have a beautiful granddaughter,a constant joy in my life who was baptised into Catholic faith with no questions asked!
It's got nothing to do with any book.It's question of acceptance and thanksgiving for any blessing.
I sometimes find that those who subscribe to no religion are far less tolerant than those who do!

No not the Koran ST , the Holy bible.

Do you not know your own rubbish?

The amalekites?

Amazing how so many faith heads don't even know the book they are trying to shove down peoples throat!

Baaaaaaaa!

Yes all outdated theology, but then again so are the ten commandments and you have no problem with pushing that as an example of how good religion is.

Yet another example of cherry picking of religious doctrine/texts.

If by railing against the appalling things still being done in the name of religions and against the people who are far more motivated to defend their faith than call out the evil ones that are within it then il take your label as intolerant as a compliment.

Thank you.

Hate to disillusion you Z,but Catholics DON'T read the bible!
We do not do bible study or Sunday school...cos we don't feel it's necessary
We study and are instructed by the Catechism...so there is a difference!
The Bible is a Protestant mechanism.

Thing is, I can do all these things:
quote:
Do you steal?
Do you kill?
Do you covet your neighbour's goods or wife?
Did you respect(honour)your parents?

Then go and see some old geezer who can give me absolution to do it all over again, So what's that load of b****ks then ? if that's not a load of old B******* I don't know what is and! why do they they rule by fear rather than understanding, and don't start us on that evil dwarf teresa, mother ? 'she never knew the meaning....