The Current Situation - Hassle E.T.C

[Mad Dilys]

I just wondered Doctor, was the pickaxe handle made in China perchance?

If not, it must be recorded as one of the very few items for sale that are not imported.

[Who2]

Actually the handle resembles mahogany........
Ps: 'Fancy Tea & Cakes at the OWP one afternoon ? I have a cunning plan.

[Nwilliams]

there has always been hassle in luxor as long as i can remember but dont with no malice and we always enjoyed the barttering and this is not the only problem stopping people coming out to luxor or many other place for a holiday its the cost of the flights and even if you do get a reasonable flight getting a place to stay can be just as bad as some of the egyptians would rather leave a flat empty than bring the price down when will they learn bring down the costs and the tourist will flood back

[Glyphdoctor]

Egypt shouldn't be positioning itself as a cheap destination. It should be targeting the high end market.

[Clandestino]

Egypt is only cheap for nations, whose currency is actually more valuable as egyptian pound. While just few western currencies are actually much more harder as LE, there are EXISTING also few countries - such as mine, (joking, one pound means 40 HUF!) - whose money means actually just a piece of paper against the (also no too hard LE).
I became very nervous if i see the foreign tourists in my country, wondering about 'How cheap life can be here!' or if they begin to talk about their journey, they often told also 'the trip wasn't too expensive'. Relations rules the world everywhere, one can pay a five starts hotel accomodation in Egypt or in Budapest, an other one will take a sleeping bag and anjoy his holiday on a budget. If one didn't want to stay in egypt like a backpacker or a survivor, i think, think, the same prize will be paid as in the most balkanic tourist' destinations like Croatia, Slovakia, etc. The difference is between the attitude of the host nations. Scams are also common by us - foreigners can be offendend in restaurants and bars by taking extreme hard bills for meal and drink, and if they didn't ignore to pay, they also easily get two muscle-brained man to accompany them to the bank or the automat (for the case if they recognize, their moneybag il lesser as they thought before). This is the only hm... similarity between egypt (except muscle-brained gorillas), others i will not describe here, because the most of threads contains its keywords - scam, hassle, gigolo, etc. The behavior - i think - comes from the attitude of the inhabitants, and exists not only in Egypt, but most of the arab countries. If you will travel to us - surely our country is also 'lesser' in economy and niveau of life - but you never will see any museum guards (old aunts) to stretch their palms for getting money - seated on their chair in a dark corner of the museum room. (Sorry for the bad example, i have much more to describe but no patience to write - only for illustrating, it's not important) If you will enjoy hassle, at least you need to get a taxi with two policemen and searching for a real gypsies' area or village inhabited by them - there you can enjoy the disorder, shouting children, hurting words - everything included. Enjoy your trip!

C
From a country where average people should collect thier money for long years to be able to manage just the plane tickets!

ps: Egyptians are thinking, all countries of the world is richer than Egypt - but they make a mistake I often told them but they told me i'm a liar...

[Alistair1967]

Egypt shouldn't be positioning itself as a cheap destination. It should be targeting the high end market.

During a global recession and with tourism numbers severely down?

[Beryl]

ps: Egyptians are thinking, all countries of the world is richer than Egypt - but they make a mistake I often told them but they told me i'm a liar...

Very valid point.

There are those on this forum that will argue that if you afford to be in Egypt on holiday then you have no right to argue about costs etc. It is never taken into consideration how long any of us have had to save, often doing without other things, to make it possible. We may not all stay in backpacker hotels but equally not so many of us (from years of reading forums such as this) stay in the top/most expensive hotels either.

Like you, I have spent much time talking with local people trying to explain the value of money - the reality and similarity of cost of living vs income. For some reason, Egyptian people, even many of those who perhaps are more educated, cannot grasp that just because we are there (for whatever reason) does not make us (necessarily) rich.

The person who met me at the airport on my last visit to Luxor was having a moan about the rising costs there, and then commented that I was lucky, I could afford new clothes. I had to point out that the 'new' skirt and blouse I was wearing were actually 4 years old but I had just not worn them to Egypt before. No comment has ever been made that time after time I am wearing the same clothes in Egypt (actually in the UK too) - it's just that now some are were falling apart!

I'm not ignorant to the fact that life is extreemly tough for many Egyptians. Very few people are! But it is those of us that try our hardest to keep returning - not because it's a cheap destination but because we really do care about the country and it's people - that are also being dragged down by the constant hassle and harranging of many in the tourist industry. We are equally frustrated by the apparent lack of will for those same people to do anything to help themselves.

[Teddyboy]

If Upper Egypt was only geared up for the higher value holidaymakers, I and many others would never have been able to come here and fall in love with the place or the people. Nevertheless, I find myself agreeing (again!) with the Dr Dr to a certain degree.
While the Red Sea and Med. resorts, along with Cairo, seem to be well able to cope with the mass tourism market, the likes of Luxor and Aswan here in Upper Egypt seem to be unwilling to give ordinary foreigners a fair chance. So many of our visitors just don't have the money to chuck around on imported junk or surly service.
I really believe that the high end tourist will always be willing to pay good money for a good standard of service and accommodation. But the owners and managers of such places must realise that their staff need to be properly trained and rewarded to give the required standards. Both local and national government also have their part to play, in regulating the amount of hassle which the visitors must endure.
A constant stream of complaints (wherever they appear) will continue to give Egypt a bad reputation and persuade holidaymakers to go elswhere.

[Mad Dilys]

I have to agree with you TB.

I have been ploughing this lonely furrow since I came here, against a tide of tourists who think cheap is best and Egyptians who see someone making a success and make a cheaper copy.

Neither are interested in tomorrow and both are entirely self interested.

Fortunately there are exceptions to this rule.

P.S. Do I get a prize as Queen of Cliches?

[Clandestino]

If Upper Egypt was only geared up for the higher value holidaymakers, I and many others would never have been able to come here and fall in love with the place or the people.

This loves is a high-prized one for people with certain habitude - if you can stay cool and resist strange behavior of the inhabitants, you're lucky. If you did born with such as temperament, you're also lucky but if not, may you need to get bad experiences for being able to wear the iron-coat of neglecting. The problem is - you're a newbie, planning your first trip. If you have friends they visited Egypt once in their life, you collect them and ask about their experiences.
One survived bad things during his visit will suggest to avoid any trip to arabic lands.
An other one will tell you - it's amazing, the people are offen and friendly, just take your luggage and fly away. But you didn't have personal experiences. The safe, well-care athmosphere of the most organized groups (i can form the opinion only about the companies working in my country and also running trips to Egypt) - will save you from the cultural and social shock You can see dust and necessity only if you're sitting in the air-con bus and the vehicle is crossing poor areas. Your tour guide will tell you to avoid to walk alone in the Harlem-like districts of Cairo, to buy gold in the shops running by the goverment, dress yourself ordinarily, etc, etc... So, i'm wondering a little bit, i thought the most of mass tourism in Egypt is coming as members of organized groups - these visitors oftenn see only the shiny side of the land, may also theycan take a look also behind the curtain bu this is not typical.

After getting beloved, they plan to return alone because they're thinking it's much more cheaper as the organized tour was. There is a mistake, the relative-felt-safety what a group could give them, flown away and they stay there, often without speaking any arabic, trained by guidebooks or the internet. And they're wondering about if a bird is just breaking out of the egg, immediately try to fly and finally he will falling directly to the cat's mouth. This is a kind of human behavior - not egyptian - if you see somebody totally helpless or lost - in case A you try to help, in case B you try to be the cat and close your mouth

Visiting socalled 'exotic' lands were always the privilege of people with higher social status. Except soldiers, scientists, crazy artists, average people could get to these destinations only by working on a ship May the inhabitants of the destination countries made paralels between coming from 'faraway' - where a 'better life' exists. But if you're looking deeply into your mind - you never thought about change your land just for a short time? Here, in Eastern-Europe a lot of people are dreaming about living in Germany, England, the scandinavian countries, etc. But after getting there - usually for working - and recognizing, life ismuch more expensiver as their thought before. If you have a currency calculator in your brain wich is never out of business, equal you have (only for example) - 2000 Euros income in a month, what means a dream salary in any eastern country but not a wondering amount on the West - if you have the usual western-prized cost of all-day living. Only few people was enough clever or lucky to find their 'golden treasure' in their dreamlands. Most of dreamers were coming home with psychical and physical burnout and the money they could spent during their employment time, easily flown away...

:-) If Columbus' destination would be Egypt, Cortés and Pizzaro wouldn't be so lucky with their glass pearls...

Egyptians are also dreaming about taking a look a little bit forward as their country-borders. Getting a plane ticket and having the papers is often an unbreakable barrier for them. The only experience the average egyptian can have about other lands and its citizens - to meet visitors.

Human behavior and attitudes are not contorrolable by rules. Rules are the lines they show us our barriers and a lot of people using these line to calculate how high or far he should jump to cross over the barrier. The Behavior of a nation couldn't change - only by hard or terroristic tools, wars, etc. If you try to educate or make rules now, the result will come more and more (and much more) generation later. The question is - it's worth to try to change or not...
May in the future, when a foreigner, suffering from any trouble, hassle, etc. can defend his right official and the case will be officially penalized - rules coul be useful against such as behavior. But i'm not going too far from the EastBlock. Here in our country, if you will be the victim of a robbery in certain districts and you're going to the police office, they say.
- You're not alone, this is the x.nd case just in this hour'. We have nothing to do...
I can believe, in Egypt, if a victim of a hassle or sexual harrassment try to search for his/her right, the most common reaction is an smile...

TB, what you means under 'ordinary foreigners?'

Ps - audietur et altera pars - i know few people here in my country, totally crazy for egypt. A kind of foreign visitor, wh's a 'nobody' (excusi' moi') in their country, are playing Baron Csekonits if they're far away from their homeland. I frequently see this also in our capital and it makes me sad and angry. I can believe what egyptians also can feel in such as situation. Joking if your a.s is smiling out of the hole on your underwear but you' stay in the middle of the Heroes' Square with a camera in your neck, a map in your hand, loudly shouting by any foreign language... Enjoy to be far away from your country, drop off your dress and shjow your real face, if you have enough money, everything is permitted.
God's ZOO is very big - but its barriers are low.

Exceptions are the only things or people they make returning or visiting valuable. We, people often makes clichés' - unfortunately most of the clichés are well-based. If you found diamants in the sand, get them and be happy about... If being beloved with something - here with Egypt - is worth to pay any prize, you will come against any bad experience. May because your diamant is waiting for you. A situation, what's humilaiting or awkward for one, may didn't hurts an other one. Everything is the question of the level of your tolerance and the thickness of your iron-coat If you cannot' be familiar with the behavior of most of egyptians - don't think about a visit - try to change your destination to the Antarktis

Before i also thought i will be able to pay any prize for a job in Egypt or to wake up daily close to my beloved Ramesseum. But if they really 'did ask about the prize' - i recognized there is nothing more for me, except few real firends
My last note - till i was sitting on my a.s at home, i never was been satisfied with my life. Visted Egypt recently, to see also its dusty and poor side, getting a lot of very big slaps into my face - but also finding real companions - i learned to respect what i really have. I learned the lesson to be happy without having any 'valuable' things - i have what i can bring everywhere i go - under my skin, in my mind and in my hands (many thanks for Ramesses for being able to reproduce everything what i want - i graphite)... At least, bad and good experiences were worth to get this feeling.

[Who2]

"Talking of shopping and being 'ripped off...'they buy all the wrong things in the wrong places: Take the picture a lorry, 1 x load of topsoil ten quid £1O.OO......
I have the same in sand a pound, Now if that isn't a bargain for a holiday maker I don't know what is.......'anybody want any genuine old stuff ?........

[Teddyboy]

Ordinary foreigners?

I mean those of us who work and save hard to be able to come here for our holiday, but who don't have much to spend whilst they are here. Not enough to be as generous as they would maybe like to be, and certainly not enough to satisfy all those who put out their hand expecting money for rubbish which isn't wanted, or expecting money because they think we can afford to give it!

Ordinary foreigners like you and me.

[Glyphdoctor]

I would not lump together people with money and plastic tourist environments. People with money to spend often have more worldly experience and have traveled and therefore are willing to experience something different. Different doesn't mean lesser or higher quality, it just means not expecting a formulaic vacation.

The poorer people who scrape together for a holiday and choose their destination based on the cheapest price are the ones who tend to be taking the prepackaged, sterilized, tourist-only kinds of vacations and therefore Egypt is forced to give them the same package as Spain for a cheaper price or lose business. This might not be a high quality holiday, but it is standardized, with open buffets you could find anywhere and big airconditioned buses shuttling them from spot to spot so that they don't get out of their comfort zone.

[Lisak]

Actually Glyph, I come under the poorer person who scrapes together for a holiday, wherever I go, and choosing the package option is the last thing on my mind.

Wherever I travel, I try to use local transport (a cheaper option) I eat in 'local' restaurants as the idea of an all inclusive buffet appalls me!

Maybe my experiences of people who travel regularly to Luxor as different to the norm elsewhere, but I would suggest there are plenty who 'go it alone' to find a cheaper option, and also spend their limited money locally.

On the flip side of this, I don't know if I could ever see Luxor as a high-end tourist destination, there is so much that needs to be changed. (Now I am only thinking here of holidays that my employers would take.....One....the restaurants wouldn't be good enough, two......no designer shopping, three.......no nightlife, This is only a little snapshot of why they wouldn't choose somewhere like Luxor)

That said, Marrakesh apparently was full of crime and hassle and more of a 'backpackers' place. The hassle and crime has been cleaned up and there are lots of high end shops, nightclubs, restaurants, hotels, riads etc etc along side the fantastic souks, foodstalls, cheap cafes and shops. Luxor could have a lot to learn from Marrakesh!!

[Beryl]

Actually Glyph, I come under the poorer person who scrapes together for a holiday, wherever I go, and choosing the package option is the last thing on my mind.

Wherever I travel, I try to use local transport (a cheaper option) I eat in 'local' restaurants as the idea of an all inclusive buffet appalls me!

Maybe my experiences of people who travel regularly to Luxor as different to the norm elsewhere, but I would suggest there are plenty who 'go it alone' to find a cheaper option, and also spend their limited money locally.

Well said - and ditto!

[Arthur]

People with money to spend often have more worldly experience and have traveled and therefore are willing to experience something different. Different doesn't mean lesser or higher quality, it just means not expecting a formulaic vacation.

So what's stopping them from coming now? What needs to change?

[Teddyboy]

I really don't believe that wealthy people have to have designer shops, fancy restaurants or nightlife to enjoy a holiday, anymore than poor people. Just because someone has money doesn't mean that they have no taste or cannot appreciate the simpler pleasures of life!
A slight interest in either foreign cultures or ancient history/archaeology will always steer people towards Egypt, and Luxor in particular. Even accommodations don't actually have to be 5*, as long they are clean with helpful, courteous staff, and have their own charm, IMHO.

[Who2]

Quote:The hassle and crime has been cleaned up and there are lots of high end shops, nightclubs, restaurants, hotels, riads etc etc along side the fantastic souks, foodstalls, cheap cafes and shops. Luxor could have a lot to learn from Marrakesh!!

I certainly hope they don't, and doubt if they ever will.........

[Lisak]

Why not Dr Who? I am interested to know!

[Teddyboy]

Perhaps, Lisak, because it wouldn't be Luxor any more?