Momma, don't let your babies grow up to work in tourism

[Glyphdoctor]

Not with draconian laws like this proposed one:
http://thecairopost.com/news/105130/new ... ssment-law

Harassment is not acceptable, but when there are separate laws for foreigners who can make up fake accusations and leave the country and not pay any price for their lies, while the men face long prison sentences unfairly, it simply would not be safe for men to work in this industry anymore.

[Who2]

Quote: 2.6 percent of males in the study said women’s clothing is one of the main reasons for harassment while 39 percent said they will beat the harasser.
Clearly a statement of cause for concern ? So, is that saying that 61% are transvestites and into submission ? confused of tunbridge wells..

[carrie]

I didn't read this as a law that was being introduced or toughend up ust because of sexual harrassment against tourists but that it applied to anyone harrassing a woman/girl anywhere in egypt and as such is to be welcomed.

[Scottishtourist]

Utter ********!Toughen up guys and be men!
Women's clothes?Get real!They'll blame anything that gives them zero responsibility for containing their ***** and their animal urges!
And their moms are just as bad!
They'll quite happily turn the other cheek whilst they harrass,intimidate and rape a tourist...then rejoice when they marry a virginal Muslim girl!
Yeah GD..don't put your poor Ahmed on the world stage cos some "auld"tourist may just take advantage of him!
They got it coming!And they should be made to pay the price if they do wrong,be it to tourists or Egyptians!
Stop blaming the tourists and look closer to home!Cos,this is the attitude that sickens me and many others about Egypt!
How dare you exonerate "the people in the industry"when it has been proved they're abusing the trust that they've been given?

[newcastle]

I didn't read this as a law that was being introduced or toughend up ust because of sexual harrassment against tourists but that it applied to anyone harrassing a woman/girl anywhere in egypt and as such is to be welcomed.

Are you reading the same article that GD mentions??

"....sexual harassment behavior targeting tourists...". Seems pretty obvious who they're going after even if the underlying existing legislation is more general.

The problems with this knee jerk response by Zaazou are obvious....although the idea of CCTV and training for tourism workers is welcomed and overdue.

[carrie]

Sorry Newcastle I thought the general law was being stregnthend and needs to be considering the figures quoted in the article. All women in Egypt need protection from this kind of behaviour. And men re educating.

[Glyphdoctor]

It could be a bad translation, but the article makes it sound like anything that "might" be construed as sexual harassment can result in a criminal conviction.

There is some behavior that is clearly harassment, but you have to also consider that there is a lot of behavior that somehow has resulted in a lot of marriages between Egyptians and foreigners and chances are that a large percentage of those relationships started off with some action on the part of the man that most other women might have considered harassment but that the targets considered flattery. Having read the stories of just some of the women on L4U, in a number of cases their relationships with their husbands started off with what I would have personally considered harassment. So it's sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

And it also ignores the fact that sometimes the harassment is made by the woman, not the man, so if she is rejected, she can pull the oldest trick in the book and accuse him of harassment.

CCTVs in tourist establishments might help in that regard to separate fake cases from real ones but still they aren't going to record every word said.

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some vindictive expats who, if they weren't happy about the price they were asked to paid for a glass of juice, would have no qualms going to the police and accuse the juice man of harassment.

Nothing in this article suggests that proof of a specific act is needed. And that's the problem.

[newcastle]

The message seems to have got through that sexual harassment of tourists is a big turn off for visitors (particularly to Luxor....I don't perceive it as such a great problem in Hurghada where there are a lot more skimpily dressed foreigners and I suppose the boys are not so'excited' by it ) but I don't see more draconian punishment as the answer. Surely it's "education"...and a change in the attitude/behavior of the young lads who routinely pester foreign women. In the west we'd say the lead needs to come from the parents/teachers etc. What the answer in Egypt is I couldn't say.....but I'd assume their basic morals are no different (i.e. it's wrong to pester women, make lewd remarks etc.) and the teaching of Islam is quite clear on the sunject.

[Glyphdoctor]

Education? What kind of education? You can tell them there are women who don't like it but there are those that do.

They don't need education. They need consequences related to their work. Those should come from the employers. You harass a customer, you lose your job or get your pay docked or somesuch. If you don't have an employer but you have some sort of license, e.g. a caleche license, it is suspended for a period of time.

But I don't think verbal harassment should ever result in jail time. These are ethics violations in most cases, not criminal ones.

[carrie]

IT's not just Europeans who are hassled in the street, I have seen many young Egyptian men hassling Egyptian girls, making comments as they pass etc. Never when they are accompanied by their brothere or other male member of the family however. How would these boys like it if it where their sisters subjected to such behaviour. Until men here learn to respect women of all nationalities nothing will change.

[Glyphdoctor]

But it's not their sisters...it's an attractive, unrelated female. And next time you see it happen, watch how the girl responds. Often, you will see they are enjoying the attention. Not saying it is acceptable, but you can't use the old "How would you like it if it was your sister" excuse because some of the girls are someone's sister but they still like it when males pay attention to them, even if their own brothers would object. Basically you are saying that the brother's opinion counts more than the girl's. No, I'm not saying harassment is ok but what I am saying is it is not so black and white. Some of it is mutual flirting as you would find anywhere in the world.

[Lewroll]

There is some behavior that is clearly harassment, but you have to also consider that there is a lot of behavior that somehow has resulted in a lot of marriages between Egyptians and foreigners and chances are that a large percentage of those relationships started off with some action on the part of the man that most other women might have considered harassment but that the targets considered flattery. Having read the stories of just some of the women on L4U, in a number of cases their relationships with their husbands started off with what I would have personally considered harassment. So it's sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Even if that has been the case, does that make it ok to harass GD?

[Lewroll]

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some vindictive expats who, if they weren't happy about the price they were asked to paid for a glass of juice, would have no qualms going to the police and accuse the juice man of harassment.

And, wow - you have a very poor opinion of female expats, care to explain why GD when my understanding is that you are one yourself?

[BENNU]

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some...

the fact that we all know there are probably some


Is that a fact?

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some vindictive expats who, if they weren't happy about the price they were asked to paid for a glass of juice, would have no qualms going to the police and accuse the juice man of harassment.

And, wow - you have a very poor opinion of female expats, care to explain why GD when my understanding is that you are one yourself?

my understanding is that you are one yourself?


Female?

[Dusak]

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some vindictive expats who, if they weren't happy about the price they were asked to paid for a glass of juice, would have no qualms going to the police and accuse the juice man of harassment.

And, wow - you have a very poor opinion of female expats, care to explain why GD when my understanding is that you are one yourself?

GD has many a time indicated her dislike towards the expats here, be it a minor dig or a full blown beheading. Especially the British ones. Perhaps her grate grandfather x whatever had a todo with us Brits in the Colonial wars. Who knows, who cares.

Sexual harassment here? Happens all over the world in every country on every continent, even the Amazonian jungle. The unwanted situation has been looked at, commented on and attempted to be stamped out. With no success. The only protection you have is your own awareness and common sense. But not even that saves many as we all at times are capable of wondering into a false sense of security. India started their new laws yesterday with sentencing to death the three animals that gang raped the foreigner. Will it stop future attack? No. And to add insult to injury the new 'death law on conviction' only takes affect if more than one attacker is responsible. So now its OK to become the lone hunter.

I really don't think, nor do I except, that any female expat here would deliberately tell lies to get an Egyptian man into trouble on a whim.

[BENNU]

The only protection you have is your own awareness and common sense. But not even that saves many as we all at times are capable of wondering into a false sense of security.

And it is easier to be aware when things are so obvious as they are in Luxor. That does not justify anything, but it has helped and inspired me a lot on my personal journey.

[Glyphdoctor]

Lewroll-I don't need to answer your questions. The answers are already there, if you bothered to read.

[carrie]

I don't know the ex pats you mix with Glyph but as a matter of FACT I know none who would deliberately lie to get an Egyptian into trouble.

[Lewroll]

Lewroll-I don't need to answer your questions. The answers are already there, if you bothered to read.

Sorry GD but I do not see anywhere, in this thread anyway, where you have tried to explain your poor opinion of female expats and also I see nowhere where you have addressed the question of justifying harassment because it sometimes ends in relationships. Please feel free to point out what I have obviously missed.

[Lewroll]

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some...

the fact that we all know there are probably some


Is that a fact?

Add to that the fact that we all know there are probably some vindictive expats who, if they weren't happy about the price they were asked to paid for a glass of juice, would have no qualms going to the police and accuse the juice man of harassment.

And, wow - you have a very poor opinion of female expats, care to explain why GD when my understanding is that you are one yourself?

my understanding is that you are one yourself?


Female?

GD purports to be a female expat or so it seems to me, Bennu.