Luxor4u

You know, it's not until the Amarna period( the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten) that we see women in more powerful roles and truly seen as equals, but that's not all. Men also embraced their feminine aspects as well which I believe is the case of Akhenaten.

He is the true embodiment of masculinity and femininity combined. The Amarna period may have actually been a better period to live in than it was led to believe.

I see are next Feministic movement coming shortly. No its not just a "I am women here me roar" kind of thing but we'll see alot of people embracin that side of themselves and views are going to change. It's a whole new Amarna Era in a sense.

Frater0082 wrote:You know, it's not until the Amarna period( the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten) that we see women in more powerful roles and truly seen as equals, but that's not all.

I disagree. I can cite examples in the Old Kingdom, but the main pre-Amarna example would be Hatshepsut, over 100 years earlier than Akhenaten.

Brian Yare wrote:

Frater0082 wrote:You know, it's not until the Amarna period( the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten) that we see women in more powerful roles and truly seen as equals, but that's not all.

I disagree. I can cite examples in the Old Kingdom, but the main pre-Amarna example would be Hatshepsut, over 100 years earlier than Akhenaten.

Quite.

Several women actually ruled as pharaoh well before the Amarna period and many others were extremely powerful (although never seen as "equal" to the living pharaoh....until Hatshepsut). Ahmose-Nefertari even achieved divine status and there are several examples of women acting as regent.

Frater is fixated on the Amarna period and I'm afraid it appears to obscure his knowledge of ancient Egypt.

Neither Tiy (wife of Amenhotep III), nor Nefertiti nor any other women of the Amarna period can be said to have achieved status truly equal to the pharaoh.....although there is, of course, the theory that Nefertiti achieved pharaonic status in the guise Neferneferuaten.

Imperial power shared with women is one thing but most histories of ancient Egyptian state clearly that the role of women was more equal (in every day life) than in comparable ancient societies. I think their point is about a long term continuity rather than particular periods during which dominant female power may have been politically obvious.

The Greek period was memorable for giving women more major power than was the case in other regions of the post-Alexander world or in Rome at a comparable time. Generally the Greeks regarded women as a necessary, but undesirable, vice.

I'm unsure about the Hittites and Phoenicians. Maybe someone can help me? Maybe there were others who gave women power? I think not.

If the histories are true it is unexpected that there was a rigid political/religious state hierarchy in Egypt but more egalitarian sharing of power at a domestic level during the period when Egypt controlled its destiny along local lines. Generally rigid political hierarchies are duplicated at the domestic level. I am not aware of any history which takes the two established facts - rigid state authority on the one hand and domestic sharing of power and responsibility - and tries to make sense of how the two worked together. Too much time spent of mummies, hieroglyphs, mystery, 'discoveries' and tomb loot. Too much digging and not enough thinking and interpretation. Unlike the study of Greek and Roman history it is the big diggers and self-publicists who lead the field.

I don't know about the Phoenicians but women in Hittite society were respected and given a range of rights under the law.

Notwithstanding, as with all patriachal societies, you'd have been better off born with a Y chromosome!

Hafiz might find the referenced paper from a compatriot student of some interest :

http://www.academia.edu/5803405/The_Liv ... Bronze_Age

Newcastle - I'm sure your point is correct but a student paper (exact status unclear) from the barely credible University of New England barely passes the al Ahram test. Its not a masters or Phd and its not refereed, just published on the net. Their Agricultural Science degree is good but the rest is no better than a miserable provincial UK university. Which is not saying a lot. In any event, if they have some competency, its in Greek and Roman History, not in pre classical history. As an aside we have contributed little to the study of the region with the exception of Veronica Seton-Williams whose voluminous and dense Blue Guide to Egypt (Norton - out of print) contains all the archaeological information you would never need to forget. She was not trained in Australia.

Don't waste your time - I accept you are probably correct. However my point is still the same - a long established rigid hierarchical society (not really the Hittites who, whilst centralized, were still tribal rather than a fully consolidated state) contrasted with some civil and legal power for women in Egypt Unusual.

An argument in your favor, which I think bull, is often made that traditional societies/religions were matriarchal and that the progress of history/consolidation of states led to a transfer of power to men. I realize this is not quite your point. My point is that the world is now full of theories about 'old' female power - maybe even in the mind of New England undergraduates. My point is also that established scholarship is that female status in Egypt was higher than expected.

newcastle wrote:
Hafiz might find the referenced paper from a compatriot student of some interest :

http://www.academia.edu/5803405/The_Liv ... Bronze_Age

Apparently not.

Sorry to have bothered you.

newcastle wrote:

Brian Yare wrote:

Frater0082 wrote:You know, it's not until the Amarna period( the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten) that we see women in more powerful roles and truly seen as equals, but that's not all.

I disagree. I can cite examples in the Old Kingdom, but the main pre-Amarna example would be Hatshepsut, over 100 years earlier than Akhenaten.

Quite.

Several women actually ruled as pharaoh well before the Amarna period and many others were extremely powerful (although never seen as "equal" to the living pharaoh....until Hatshepsut). Ahmose-Nefertari even achieved divine status and there are several examples of women acting as regent.

Frater is fixated on the Amarna period and I'm afraid it appears to obscure his knowledge of ancient Egypt.

Neither Tiy (wife of Amenhotep III), nor Nefertiti nor any other women of the Amarna period can be said to have achieved status truly equal to the pharaoh.....although there is, of course, the theory that Nefertiti achieved pharaonic status in the guise Neferneferuaten.

No I'm not. I'm pretty aware of all the other dynasties but favorite is of course this time period.

Brian Yare wrote:

Frater0082 wrote:You know, it's not until the Amarna period( the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten) that we see women in more powerful roles and truly seen as equals, but that's not all.

I disagree. I can cite examples in the Old Kingdom, but the main pre-Amarna example would be Hatshepsut, over 100 years earlier than Akhenaten.

What I was trying to say that it was more women doing major things than any time before and after in my opinion.

Queen Tiy and Nefertiti were obviously prominent women during the reigns of their husbands, and perhaps afterwards, but do you have any evidence regarding other personages, or non-royals , showing that the Amarna period differs in any significant way from other periods to support your rather sweeping assertion (or, rather, opinion)?

Sitamun
Iset
Meritaten
Ankhesepaaten
Mutemwiya
Nebetnehat
Tey
Thuya
Kiya


All women that existed in that time frame and all did something a bit more than any other women gone and after. Yeah, we have Hatshepsut and so forth but to me things kicked up in this period. We can argue all day about this but there is no Era like it until now.

My earlier posts wasn't just about Queens of Amarna it was about women in general from the times of Amenhotep III to Tutankhamun.

Frater0082 wrote:Sitamun
Iset
Meritaten
Ankhesepaaten
Mutemwiya
Nebetnehat
Tey
Thuya
Kiya


All women that existed in that time frame and all did something a bit more than any other women gone and after. Yeah, we have Hatshepsut and so forth but to me things kicked up in this period. We can argue all day about this but there is no Era like it until now.

My earlier posts wasn't just about Queens of Amarna it was about women in general from the times of Amenhotep III to Tutankhamun.

I could give you a list of 100+ royal or prominent women of earlier or later periods. So what?

I asked you what they did and why you think they did anything extraordinary....or, at any rate, more than great ladies of earlier reigns. Not just their names or what their position was at court.

And not from your 'dreams" please. From archaeologically verified sources.

As regards women in general during the Amarna period, I'd be interested to hear what you know about them. My understanding is that our knowledge of life outside the court is particularly sparse during this period.

newcastle wrote:

Frater0082 wrote:Sitamun
Iset
Meritaten
Ankhesepaaten
Mutemwiya
Nebetnehat
Tey
Thuya
Kiya


All women that existed in that time frame and all did something a bit more than any other women gone and after. Yeah, we have Hatshepsut and so forth but to me things kicked up in this period. We can argue all day about this but there is no Era like it until now.

My earlier posts wasn't just about Queens of Amarna it was about women in general from the times of Amenhotep III to Tutankhamun.

I could give you a list of 100+ royal or prominent women of earlier or later periods. So what?

I asked you what they did and why you think they did anything extraordinary....or, at any rate, more than great ladies of earlier reigns. Not just their names or what their position was at court.

And not from your 'dreams" please. From archaeologically verified sources.

As regards women in general during the Amarna period, I'd be interested to hear what you know about them. My understanding is that our knowledge of life outside the court is particularly sparse during this period.

When one regress to one of their past lives they are not dreams they are visions and one don't have to be a skeep either. For the most part I wasn't asleep.

Like, I've said on numerous occasions, by the time I was born in that Era it was towards the end of the Amarna period on the exact same day Meketaten died which could've been in august or the fall.

I knew little of them but I knew what I needed to know.

Queen Tiye was as mighty as they said. She got her way even to the end. She died of grief of course you already know that one of her beloved daughter was murdered.

On her death bed she called out the name "Nebetah"
So that is how know that the Younger Lady is her therefore also Nefertiti.

Nefertiti, was beautiful but devious. She did not like my mother Kiya at all. She was jealous in the way. Nebetah gave Akhenaten a son which highness the mood but it must have ticked her off when Kiya gave Waenre a son. Nefertiti is the one I have the most in common with I see alot of myself in her. I tend to think I inherited her ways and insecurities.

I never got to know Sitamun but she was very close to Tiye ever present at her side. She sported that Short wig of hers and she had tiny feet. I think there was something off with her feet. She had this cute little voice though.

Like Sitamun I never got a chance to know Iset but I believe that her daughter was my snobby cousin Psetenupe, they looked so much alike. Iset shared alot of characteristics of Tiye.

Hennutaneb I never met (from my understanding). Nebetnehat had something seriously wrong with her feet so she barely was around at all. She could barely walk without her two servants. Between she and Sitamun, I seriously think that the kv21B mummy is her because I got a vision of her from studying this mummy and her herself.

Beketaten, most of my knowledge comes from after the Amarna period because she outlived it. I didn't like her much always in my business. She was sickly though she had this skin disease that made her look aweful. At one point she was good friends with Queen Sitre, who I think served as Ankhesepaaten's
Wet nurse Tia. I don't know what happened to make them fell out but Beke (as we called her because Seti didn't allow the mentioning of the aten) was executed by hanging and then her body burned afterwards due to disease. Her lasts words were "that you would one day see the return of the Aten"

Akhenaten, papa. Papa was by this time a sickly king. He looked to be about 27 to 29 at the time and tall. For the most part he stood in the shadoes while someone else run the kingdom but he was very much alive when I saw him. He had this disease that made him look hideous. One eye was yellow the other normal and his fingers were thin. One time I went to see him and what I saw horrified me. He loved his family though he and Tiye always watched over the little ones alot.

Tutankhamun, what a strange but shy boy, reminds me of me. He always stood to himself never bothering no one, his stares were creepy though I found myself getting chills whenever he wold look at me. He was sad because he never wanted to be king though. Just wanted a normal life. It's sad how he died at such a young age never to live a life that he wanted.


Now to my sisters. I know more about them than anybody.

Mery "Meritaten" was of course the eldest she took good care of us younger siblings and we looked up to her alot. She was very devoted to her family ad all matriarch should be. She didn't talk that much only when necessary. She and Ankh "Ankhesepaaten" were very very close(even to this day). Mery went so far to protect her family it caused her to be disgraced. Yes, I'm implying that she was Queen Neferneferuaten, the third person under that name and the second one to rule under it. She tried to outmanuever Tut from the throne for his safety but she failed and was digraced. She livef with three of my others sisters in Abydos working under Seti up until the Nubian Rebellion. I don't know why but she returned home to Egypt and most likely died and was buried in the capital at that time.

Ankh "Ankhesepaaten" the life of the party. She was the voice in the family and of course the heart of the family. She was the fourth person to take on the rule as Neferneferuaten serving as regent for the first three years and two months of Tutankhamun's reign. I think it was she who married Tut to Ankhesepaaten Tasherit. She was the most beautiful one (all of them were gorgeous) but Ankh stood out the most when it came to Seti it was she who talked up first. I think she was right-handed too.

Setepenre and Tentenaten were the quiet ones so they hardly spoke. Setepenre usually would sit in a corner mumbling to herself but we loved her so. She stood close behind Mery and Ankh thus was Seti's female messenger.

Tentenaten I don't know what she did in Seti's Palace but it had to have been important. I don't think she liked being around me because papa gave mama an option to take me or her and she chose to take me. This issue seems to have never been solved between us two (I think)

Neferneferuaten and Neferneferure, I don't know where they were when everyone was booted out but they came home shortly after I did. They looked to be twins to me. Ankh was beautiful but these girls were hot I'm talking sexier than Kardashian hot. But Neferneferure was sick though I do not know what happened and it was a mystery that my sisters did share with me. I just thought she got severely hurt while living with a foreign ruler but now I think she may have lost a child and was dealing with the pain.
They were all strong people in their right but nothing came close to family.

I was so hung on Seti that I didn't see what he was doing to my family. My sisters and Beke knew and they allowed me to see what they saw. Yeah we ruled together and could've still been had he not yelled "back away from servant" and humiliate me in front of the entire town, it was war then. I never gave Seti my body again after that.

Seti just seemed so good. Oh I loved every bit of this man and to be cast aside like that. Oh god here I go.

Newscastle you asked and you'be received. I don't talk about this story like I used to because no one cares. So in the sands of times it remains I guess. I'm so focused on life and other things now but try to make room sometime for my past just to keep the memory fresh, but I give it will never be solved so it's done.

Women are beautiful all of them. I have learned a lot from this era and one of those things is to embrace my masculinity and femininity, just as my forefathers did. They didn't hide their ugliness or their beauty flaws and all were shown.

I love this period because I come from it. It's sad that we will(well you guys) will never know what happened behind those Palace walls in Amarna. I gets somethings aren't meant to be solved.

However the greatest treasures are not the tomb's and riches that they left behind but those that are alive.

Frater, can I request that when you make posts that refer to unsupportable facts that involve your beliefs in reincarnation and/or recollections of a past life, that you make such posts in the Myths and Spirituality section and not in the History & Archaeology section which is intended to deal with the more serious aspects of the subject. Many threads tend to go ‘off topic’ but in this case you are veering away from an initial serious question put by yourself that has raised several replies and are now wandering off into the realms of fantasy without any means of substantiating your claims.