Luxor4u

Evolution in Egypt.

No I don’t mean THAT – I mean Darwin and the geneticists that followed him including, oddly, the Czech, Augustinian friar Mendel.

Most people think that the modern versions of Darwin and Evolution are just about human development but its also about plants and animals.

The ignorant still doubt it in places like the religious right of the USA – although they run off to hospitals to get medical treatments from the modern science that flows from it. Far right Christian farmers reject it but breed their plants and animals better because of it. How they embrace one and reject the other shows how stupid they are.

Russia under Stalin rejected it because it didn’t fit with Communist dogma (that a ‘new Man’ and maybe new plants could be ‘created’ by merely restructuring power in society/abandoning capitalism) and persecuted and killed some of its best scientists. https://theconversation.com/the-tragic- ... ence-72580. The Lysenko idea, more political power than 4th rate science, that a communist society could fundamentally and permanently change the basic characteristics of people was applied to plants and animals leading to starvation and deaths in the millions throughout the communist world – including millions in China – and the purging of universities. Stalin liked and promoted Lysenko and he was the ‘greatest intellect in the history of the world’. Their greatest living real genetic biologist, a truly great scientist, was banged up by the KGB and died in prison probably after a KGB beating and thus shutting up all the opposition to the Lysenko rant.

It should surprise no one that the authoritarian, one party state of Putin, with its awful universities, is bringing the idiot Lysenko back. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... al-science. Maybe the new genetics will get Russian men to live beyond an average age of 64 years. Whether this mad view of plant genetics has force in Egypt I’m unclear except to say that agricultural science and biology in Egypt is close to the worst in the world which is very odd for a society with 10-12 million on farms whose productivity lags the world.

Educated people are still confused and Richard Dawkins said in 2006 UK based Muslim medical students were distributing leaflets opposing Evolution. The leaflets were published by the Nasr Center. These students should have been failed not for their views but because of their stupidity and poor knowledge of basic biology and DNA. https://www.qiraat.net/media/downloads/ ... rd_dawkins...

Evolution is suppressed by Islam but they chose the benefits of its thinking including its associated theories like DNA to save their lives. Hypocrites, they should be consistent, reject it and die in their tens of millions.

Whether such ignorance is widespread in Egypt is hard to tell but a few things indicate that it is. For example modern DNA medicine tells us that close marriages, consanguineous, are bad for child birth defects yet al Azhar, and maybe Egyptian medicine, is silent. These marriages are widespread in rural and particularly Upper Egypt. Older fathers also increase birth defects but this again is widespread in rural areas. Poor diet and disease affects the IQ and body function of the fetus but billions of western money into Egypt to deal with this has had little effect. The governments announcement a few years ago that they had cured HepC and AIDS showed a few things including that the ruling elite lacked even the most basic knowledge of virology/DNA and were the most ignorant/stupid in the world – along with 4 Egyptian doctors who signed off on this fiasco (who were subsequently unmasked as Jewish spies).

It seems true that Hawass absolutely prohibited DNA testing of mummies whilst he was in control, and after, and that the DNA work has generally been done on mummies in western collections. Those collections of course should, according to Hawass, be returned for the great work that Egyptians will do on then. What work? https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110427 ... 2404a.html. The exception to this was the Discovery Chanel King Tut DNA analysis which all/most western scientists thought scientifically flawed. It probably delivered a few coins into Hawass’s pocket so who cares.

There is something about absolute dictatorships that rejects Evolution and the genetic code that goes with it - DNA – maybe its their dogmatic thinking.

Since the Qur‘ān does not provide as many details regarding theistic or God guided evolution as appear in the biblical book of Genesis, Muslims can argue that Darwinian evolution does not directly contradict or harm Islamic teachings. But they don’t.

There are major scholars of the Muslim world, some very well known, such as [Mohamed Said Ramadan] Al Bouti, and the Sheiks of Al Azhar [University, Egypt] who have spoken very strongly against evolution and have sometimes branded people who believe evolution as heretics. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... od/5822276

General public views on Evolution are clouded but an Egypt survey in 2007 said that 8% believed in it, probably mainly in Cairo, and other reports are that classrooms are ignorant beyond belief on it. Even Professors of Zoology at the black hole, Cairo University believe it with plants and animals but not humans. https://www.egyptindependent.com/percep ... nd-beyond/ A 2000 Faraday/Cambridge study found differences between religions and surprisingly high levels of mad ideas in the UK. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... od/5822276

Living in civilized countries and getting a university education doesn’t change Muslim view and a King’s College Phd found that 96% of Muslim graduates rejected Darwin. And we think that migrants adapt to new circumstances but maybe some religions don’t. 2/3rds wanted its teaching in schools stopped. A majority believed that belief in Evolution led to atheism. https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/ ... thesis.pdf

In supermarket shopping fashion Darwin was popular in the Middle East from say, 1900-52 but only in select bits and only bits that were bogus. In particular Spencer’s Social Darwinism and its view of how societies develop on scientific principles was taken up as an answer to Arab problems and at a time it was elsewhere discredited – except by mad communists.

Sometimes you think action and thought in the region is like a mob of sheep – no outliers and everyone sticks together.

The related ‘evolutionary’ theory of ideas – memes – is controversial but in essence says that method of selection adapts and changes, or kills off, ideas on Darwinian terms. In some ways it explains why liberal societies, but not Russia or Egypt, that promote competition between ideas produce the best solution to human problems – social, economic, political or scientific. Maybe that’s why Egypt hasn’t produced a single new idea in 70 years from its tens of millions – quite an achievement. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/Memetics-Springer.pdf

So evolution is suppressed in Egypt, diet, older fathers and pollution reduces IQ in children which limits their capacity to reach a standard potential, the education system is the worst in the world with similar effects and the political system absolutely suppresses and violently punishes debate and new ideas. Breeding of crops and animals seems also to be 'old style' and therefore not very good.The likely effects are clear.

Edifying, may I ask ? 'What do you do on your day off ?.....

Only the other day I was discussing this with a Muslim friend. I asked if he believed that man was created from mud by God as Muslims are taught. He said yes and I asked about evolution yes he agreed Mohammed the prophet told us about this, he said it was too difficult for people to understand how Allah could create human beings from dirt, and that in the future Man would come out with a theory that the ordinary person could understand. Wouldn't be the truth but for some it was a solution. An educated man, university graduate but no way would he ever believe in evolution.

I think it must have flown over the Country ad not landed

carrie wrote:Only the other day I was discussing this with a Muslim friend. I asked if he believed that man was created from mud by God as Muslims are taught. He said yes and I asked about evolution yes he agreed Mohammed the prophet told us about this, he said it was too difficult for people to understand how Allah could create human beings from dirt, and that in the future Man would come out with a theory that the ordinary person could understand. Wouldn't be the truth but for some it was a solution. An educated man, university graduate but no way would he ever believe in evolution.

Yes, it's interesting isn't it? My Turkish husband (ex) was the same - university, professional job as a photo-journalist for Turkeys official news agency, well travelled, but believed that the Koran was absolute fact. He would discuss religion and philosophy, but had no doubts at all that stories such as Noah's ark were literal and happened just as described. A total paradox.

Interesting post Hafiz, although I think the case - ignorant backward islam/egyptians versus the more educated West - is rather overstated in some areas.

Yes....Islam is superficially incompatible with evolution. So are Christianity & Judaism, Most proponents of these faiths recognise that the scriptures should not be taken literally. Whilst the Quran is believed by muslims to be the actual words of God, relayed to Mohammed, the text is so deliciously vague that muslim scientists need not be afraid of pursuing careers based on genetics. Many do.

Genetic considerations militate against marriage of close relatives. I think this is recognised in Egypt where there is a predominance of cousin-marriage. Hence the rise in pre-marital testing for inheritable problems. Social factors drive the cousin-marriage problem (boys and girls rarely interact outside the family circle). We had the same issue in the pre 20th Century West where difficulties of travel encouraged a geographical restriction of the gene pool.

The absence of serious teaching of evolution in Egyptian schools is regrettable .....but creationist ideology exists widely in US and its proponents lobby ceaselessly for it to be taught in schools.

In any case, as I expect John Landon would say, scientists can always be wrong. Just because we haven't found pre-Cambrian Adam doesn't mean he never existed!

I think Hawass' reticence about DNA testing of mummies was largely a combination of submitting to a science of which he was entirely ignorant and genuine concerns as to whether anything worthwhile could be found from 3000 year old bodies. He was not alone in this. Unfortunately, having been persuaded to allow DNA analysis of Tut's family, his ego took over and he commandeered the scientific process and interpreted the results to suit his predetermined theory. In particular, that the KV55 mummy was Akhenaton.

Consequently, the results of that particular exercise have largely been consigned to the dustbin by Academia

Post subject: Re: Evolution in Egypt
I can't quite put my finger on the word I'm looking for, it's on the 'tip of my tongue.....
It's an 'a ........something ?

Who2. Not medicine or science. The subtlety/irony in your second post evaded me.

Newcastle. Yes I overstated the argument but the issue - and a bit muddled - (part of it) was about how science survives in a dictatorship - not well because dictators don't like systems more reliable than them.

Sure Evolution has a problem with another group - lets call them fundamentalists/dogmatists/generalists - and there are a lot of those in Christianity - particularly the US. But they are not a majority. nor do they have much power, except for Trump, they are subject to the law and widespread public ridicule, nor do they teach at universities or generally in schools. If they try and teach the creationist rot in most western schools they are fired. In Egypt and much of the Muslim world they are in all these jobs and in the majority.

I guess my implied point, not for the first time, is how can hundreds of millions reject Evolution and after 160 years can't even do the first paragraph to disprove it. I wonder what it was like for Galileo and Copernicus? Are we so monkey brain that we stick to what we like no matter what - Brexit and denying Climate Change?

The Hawass brick was just that - trying to throw him again into a drop toilet - where he does so well. I need to edit better.

Its a bit off point and more about medicine. Anatomy/autopsies/vivisection used to be prohibited by Islam which kept medicine backwards in Egypt. Even today the training of doctors avoids this and holds a world record - all lectures, a few blow up dolls and no/almost no dead or living bodies. As a result surgical standards, and a bit more, are appalling and a particular example of low scientific standards based on primitive thinking. Generally speaking scientific standards are very low and much lower than poorer countries or countries with a similar standard of living - Turkey (a bit higher).

Evolution in Egypt.
enigma ? conundrum ? paradoxical ? it's up there somewhere, I'll come to me sooner or later....

You could be on to it.

Churchill said this of Egypt's new bestie - or is it beastie - Russia - 'a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma'